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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Transgender Trend's new resource pack for schools

274 replies

Betti936 · 12/02/2018 23:40

www.transgendertrend.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Transgender-Trend-Resource-Pack-for-Schools.pdf

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OldmanOfTheWeb · 15/02/2018 22:25

Some of this stuff is unbelievable. Good first comment on the Riley Dennis video: "So we're back to saying my sexual orientation is a choice, then?"

That second URL wouldn't play for me, though I looked up some of Magdalen Bern's videos on YouTube. I couldn't work out which one you were specifically referencing but I watched a few of them and they were interesting.

Melamin · 15/02/2018 22:27

2/4 comments are good. The other two are as useless as the article with their unsubstantiated condemnation and don't say anything useful either.

TheGoalIsToStayOutOfTheHole · 15/02/2018 22:29

I would bet my house that the people slagging the guidance have not even read it and are commenting blind. I genuinely do not see how anyone could read it and find it 'dangerous' when its mainly about supporting GNC children and ..letting them just be children rather than enforcing stereotypes on them and telling them they can change sex.

Melamin · 15/02/2018 22:30

Actually that is 3 of the 4 comments - please ignore me, it is past my bedtime Hmm

OldmanOfTheWeb · 15/02/2018 22:43

QuentinSummers Great link. I have added my own comments although it's "awaiting moderation". We'll have to see if it gets published. I hope so.

OvaHere · 15/02/2018 22:49

Just saw this on the GC reddit and thought it would fit in this thread. The whole Jazz situation makes me so sad and mad.

www.reddit.com/r/GenderCritical/comments/7xtn3p/jazz_jennings_tears_up_during_past_life/

Flamingowings · 15/02/2018 23:03

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Datun · 15/02/2018 23:34

Interestingly, I have been looking at the fair play for women website and the exemptions to the equality law. They say this about schools:

"ECHR schools guidance indicates that mis-gendering a pupil who identifies as transgender and/or insisting they using single-sex spaces according to their birth sex would be discriminatory. Interesting however, it does not state that they must be allowed access into the opposite single-sex space. It can be enough to simply provide an alternative space for them”.

They also say that you can invoke the equality act for sport. If the transwoman has a clear competitive advantage due to their sex.

Something that the IOC presumably thought they could address with testosterone levels.

But it might be important in sport for children, as puberty kicks in and boys start to have an advantage over girls.

fairplayforwomen.com/?s=Legal+rights&submit=Search

It's really little wonder that the trans organisations are so pissed off with the likes of transgender trend and fair play for women.

CharlieParley · 16/02/2018 02:12

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

WeAreGerbil · 16/02/2018 08:01

What the hell do they mean by medical term?

It's because "homosexuality" was the term originally used in the DSM of mental disorders.

Datun · 16/02/2018 08:28

But Gerbil wasn't that changed years ago? And haven't gay organisations absolutely vilified anyone who even hinted at it being any kind of disorder?

What are they playing at?

OvaHere

I have no trouble believing that Jazz is in a mess. I think everyone on here has been predicting it for several years.

What I do find surprising is that it's being broadcast publically.

I can't work out why. Surely, if he was regretting it, it's going to make the parents look dreadful.

And if he's not, why hint that he is?

I wonder if it's the precursor to a new TV series called 'Jazz Detransitions'.

I can't help feeling that his family is entirely motivated by money. The only way they can get out of this which would help Jazz, and keep the cash coming in, is to stop and say it was a terrible mistake, they were badly advised, they are suing. And just recanting everything and become victims.

CharlieParley

Thanks for that analysis. I need to read it again, to make sure I've got in straight in my head.

I have absolutely no doubt that statistics will be continually massaged to promote transgenderism. So it's good to get to the bottom of things.

WeAreGerbil · 16/02/2018 08:33
  1. Are they not just acknowledging that the word exists but that it is outdated because it implies a disorder as you say?
newyearsameme80 · 16/02/2018 10:34

Why does homosexual imply a disorder any more than heterosexual does? It sounds more like a scientific description to me. It’s a “formal” term rather than the more informal gay and straight.

WeAreGerbil · 16/02/2018 10:51

This explains the history of classifying homosexuality as a mental illness - www.madinamerica.com/2014/12/homosexuality-came-dsm/

Taking it out (eventually) was a recognition that it was a normal part of human sexuality rather than an illness.

OldmanOfTheWeb · 16/02/2018 11:07

CharlieParley. Thank you for that excellent post. I shall be saving that and using it to read further again later.

It's also "No True Scotsman" rather than "Not All Scotsman", just to note. It comes from the fallacy of defining anyone who contradicts the desired result as 'not a true member of the group'. Had to mention that one thing.

CharlieParley · 16/02/2018 12:40

I've asked Mumsnet to remove my earlier post, since I erred in the most important figure. (Embarassingly, I copied a typo over from the blog post rather than going to the source). So here it is again, but I've changed the paragraph about the Australian court case.

Just wanted to weigh in with an observation on the desistance rates (sorry, can't remember everyone's names so will just address in general)

I've now been reading lots about this, watching videos, reading research papers etc. The statistics are a mess, no matter which way you look at it.

The average desistance rate of children until now was 80 to 95%

Until now is important, because until now the appropriate course of action has been to explore why the child might be dysphoric, get them appropriate help and support (this can consist of play therapy, behaviour modification - some dysphoric behaviour isn't trans, it's anxiety related or social problems etc, all kinds of therapy in short)

The treatment attitude was wait and see how it pans out, let the child express themselves at home. If the medical practioner felt - after exploring the whys and wherefores and therapy etc - that social transitioning might help, the child was then transitioned socially.

I don't have the number of how many of those who presented were transitioned, but the number of those who desisted after transitioning socially fell to 30%. In the research this was explained as proof that the wait and see approach was right and also that there was now a social cost attached to detransitioning (affecting both children and adults alike). From a medical perspective, that's too high a failure rate already - a chance of one in three of getting it wrong.

Once medical transition comes into the picture, the statistics are much harder. The Dutch clinic who pioneered hormone treatment had a 0% desistance rate. But I've found in the literature that 20% of all who had bottom surgery regretted it (I think the studies also said 20% desisted after surgery, but couldn't swear that it was the same 20% that regretted it).

There simply is not enough data on detransitioners after medical transition. We do know the rate is not zero because of a recent cross-sectional study (slightly touched upon in the new Transgendertrend report which quotes 93% of detransitioners saying they didn't get enough help) which found over 250 trans-identified females who medically transitioned and then desisted.

The 4% comes from this blog post:

growinguptransgender.wordpress.com/2017/12/03/the-end-of-the-desistance-myth/

Like someone said before me it employs the No True Scotsman fallacy (thank you for teaching me that expression!) and claims that the studies include children who would not now be diagnosed as transgender.

One of the reasons why this is terribly misleading is that although they claim that the new guidelines for clinically diagnosing dysphoria are stricter, given that affirmation is now the only acceptable course of action for a child presenting as transgender, we're now seeing children being transitioned socially who've never even been diagnosed.

This should actually lead to a higher number of socially transitioned children later detransitioning.

The blog post also quotes this Australian court case where the new evidence comes from

growinguptransgender.files.wordpress.com/2017/12/602fd-rekelvin30november2017.pdf

Here evidence is presented from one clinic in Australia which states that 96% of those diagnosed persisted into late adolescence but that they have no longitudinal data yet

As most who desist do so only after a few years of dysphoria, I looked into how many referrals this particular clinic had within the last four years (working on the assumption that these children would not yet have desisted, but may do so in the future).

The clinic accepts children under 8 up to 17 (17yolds are referred to adult services. It had a total of 86 referrals in the first ten years of its existence, the other 614 in the last 3.5. No figure is given as to how many of those referred are diagnosed.

If most children desist only after a few years, the 4% desistance rate relies on only a small cohort of children (i.e. smaller than 86 if not all are diagnosed and fully 40 of that 86 were referred in 2013 and may or may not have reached the stage where they would typically desist).

Most importantly, the gender clinic emphasised that they had no long-term data and looking into the treatment regimen, which they updated in 2017, they now affirm at all ages and seem to socially transition early. At onset of puberty they start blockers, around 15 or 16 cross-sex hormones.

TL:DR The 4% compares apples with oranges. It is based on a clinic whose treatment regimen involves very early social and medical transition and we know that the desistance rate falls sharply once this has been done. It is also based on data from a tiny number of children without evidence of longterm outcomes.

As someone said earlier, however, it does seem to confirm that once you're on the rollercoaster, it's much harder to get off. Of course we could all just sit back and wait twenty years, then we'd definitely know what the new desistance rates are. They'll just involve a lot of kids who've been messed up for life...

P.S. Thank you to OldmanOfTheWeb for seeing me right about the actual name of the fallacy. I've corrected it above.

OldmanOfTheWeb · 16/02/2018 13:12

On the contrary - thank you for such an excellent analysis. I got blindsided by the 4% figure the other day and it was so absurdly out of line with previous studies that it just seemed to be madness to me.

Melamin · 16/02/2018 14:34

thirdforcenews.org.uk/tfn-news/anger-over-transgender-education-pack

Another article.

MaisyPops · 16/02/2018 14:39

It's interesting how 'dangerous' this pack apparently is but nobody cab actually say which part is dangerous.

It's all a bit The nasty people are saying that 2+2=4 when everyone knows the answer is 5. Make them shut up. Make it stop.

TheGoalIsToStayOutOfTheHole · 16/02/2018 18:18

There simply is not enough data on detransitioners after medical transition.

And research into detransitioners is blocked, as apparently its transphobic. According to transactivists. You would think, that they would want as much research as possible to go into this whole phenomenon. Both to better understand the condition, and to figure out the best treatment regimes for those affected.

Makes you wonder, quite what is it that they do not want people to find out.

Its even more important to have as much information as possible on children and treatments used. But its also important to understand how treatment affects adults too. And of course detransitioners are important. See, normal people want to help these people too, not just shove them to one side and pretend they do not exist, or that they are as rare as hens teeth. When there is limited/no research, TRAs can continue to pretend detransitioners are really really rare. I suspect, proper studies would show that this is categorically not the case. But even if they ARE really rare, they still matter.

OldmanOfTheWeb · 16/02/2018 19:12

Bad information gets passed around with no verification and great glee. Good information gets quietly ignored if it can't be refuted.

Have been discussing this on Twitter (I should know better). Had someone tell me that "most studies show that regret is around 2.2%". I had to correct them, no - one Swedish study on adults who had proceeded on to sex reassignment surgery concluded that. And even then the figure excludes suicides who we can presume weren't happy.

They seemed to think they could just apply a study from people in their thirties who sought it out to young children guided into it.

I referenced another study that gave 20% and immediately got a reply that this was 'still better than chemotherapy and we do that.'

What can you do with such people? They hear what they want to hear and never question it. If they don't like it they either refuse it or forget it.

BitFuckedOffNow · 16/02/2018 19:22

What can you do with such people? They hear what they want to hear and never question it. If they don't like it they either refuse it or forget it.

Remember they're not the only ones reading. Other people will be reading your tweets and taking note of which side has the most rational well-reasoned arguments. It's why sea lioning is such a terrible tactic for the TRAs to use, IMO, even if it is irritating as fuck. Grin

SuburbanRhonda · 16/02/2018 19:56

Thanks for posting that Magdalena Berns video. I just love her - she’s so carefully analytical, intelligent and funny at the same time.

Ereshkigal · 16/02/2018 20:17

Remember they're not the only ones reading. Other people will be reading your tweets and taking note of which side has the most rational well-reasoned arguments. It's why sea lioning is such a terrible tactic for the TRAs to use, IMO, even if it is irritating as fuck.

Great point!

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