Spectator article: Don't fall for it people

[JenniferJames]

Comrades,

The framing of the self-id debate as 'Corbynistas vs. Mumsnet' is a deliberate tactic by the right wing propaganda machine and done to undermine Jeremy Corbyn and the Labour party and paint it as hopelessly divided. We're not.

It is important to remember that only a Corbyn gov't will lift women out of poverty, build homes, invest in the economy, make tuition fees free and stop invading the Middle East. Jeremy, though he doesn't hold our position, is the only Labour MP who has not only come out and said that women are entitled to a debate and to campaign against self-id, but that we have a right to raise money to see if the Equalities Act 2010 exemptions are being misused by AWS.

Hope everyone is well. Mumsnet you are indeed mighty.

Forget the twitter spats - let's just support Jennifer's legal challenge against self ID for Labour AWS

Not that simple when they on here and Twitter are having a pop that aren't members of the Corbyn fun bus.

*at those that aren't

So, even within the Labour Party, there must be women who don’t think Corbyn is the Messiah. Does JJ’s campaign for AWS exclude these women? I thought the campaign was for all women, as in all biological females, not all women who support Corbyn even though he does not appear to know what a woman is.

🤷🏻‍♀️

I couldn't care less what the name of the party is - they are basically all the same, just that they label themselves as labour/tory/lib or whatever.

I will vote for the party that gets rid of this ridiculous self ID malarkey.

Simples.

At this moment in time, Tory is looking favourite.

The Tories are in favour of self-ID too, aren't they? Didn't Theresa May make a big speech at a Stonewall gala last year?

At this rate, the only parties against self-ID will be the DUP, BNP, UKIP and various faith-based parties. None of whom I'm ever likely to vote for! It's depressing...

The Tories do seem to be backtracking though. Amber Rudd told Andrew Marr they were still thinking it through, and that they would keep sex-based exemptions.

Hopefully if Jennifer does only want support from Corbynistas, she will say so directly.

At this moment in time, Tory is looking favourite.

Maria Miller started all this self-ID malarkey. I am not a Tory voter anyway, but on this issue, they are no better at all.

To be fair to Labour -

The Tories don't have AWS at all (afaik?) - they have only ever talked about them. So this hasn't been an issue for them....

Labour at least, do have AWS. But seem to be all for self-ID. So, even if Jennifer's legal challenge worked - and stopped self-ID transwomen on the AWS - the next time Labour are in power, it's looks like they would bring self ID into legislation - and then there would be nothing anyone could do.

As I understand it, Tories (although it was their policy in the first place) are now backing away from it a bit - and at least saying that they need to listen to women's groups etc.

So my vote would - right now - go to the Tories.

I'm sincerely hoping it won't come to that, and that Labour will start to listen to women about this. But so far, all they have done is allow women to be expelled from the party for saying the wrong thing.

Maria Miller is an idiot, and the women and equalities committee totally missed this on her watch. But senior Tories are saying they can see the issues and it needs to be discussed. Bit different from stating self-id is policy when it isn't actually, failing to meet with women in your party with sensible concerns, chucking women out of your party for pointing out basic biology, quite probably breaking the law on AWS and not even bothering to tell people if they've checked this, and not pulling Madigan up on antics that make it quite clear her concerns and interests are not those of biological women. Corbyn looks like a fucking lunatic.

I do agree though on Terftastic 's point that Labour have AWS voluntarily unlike the Tories and that were it not for the Self-ID bollocks this would be a massive point in their favour.

The Tories have backtracked a bit. They are now saying that there is definitely no way they will change EA2010 along with the GRA even though that was in the Maria Miller report. That means we keep the legality of single sex exceptions.

I think we can also safely say that there is good possibility that the Tories only ever saw this as a way to get some socially liberal votes without having to compromise on right wing economic policies. It was never something the whole party actually cared about.

So it will be much easier for the Tories to drop self-ID than it would for Labour, because Labour have gone all in. And Labour has an activist base more likely to be keen on self-ID, while the Tories have one less likely to be keen.

If you're a single issue voter about this, I'd bet my bottom dollar the Tories will be the most likely to cave.

I'm sincerely hoping it won't come to that, and that Labour will start to listen to women about this

It isn't only this they have to listen to women over. There are many issues people won't vote for them over as people have said on this and other threads.

terftastic

I think i am more of a centrist, probably centre right

Tories are much too far right and labour are too left

I feel a little lost and have been voting lib dem

But as it stands with self ID...i agree it would probably be tory now

Or maybe nothing

Im not drawing a penis...i would have to buy some pink lipstick

A men saying a woman can debate - oh how fucking kind of him. Fuck off jezza you woman hating, anti Semitic cunt

*Man - sorry I was angry typing

Self ID is being instituted despite of it being a violation of the Equalities Act.

I'm not really falling for anything. I'm so happy to see this now being more widely reported, though not nearly widely enough. And I don't care whether it's the left, right or upside down press that get the message out there.

I was very politically active for labour in my area up until recently.

I've been made to feel more and more uncomfortable in my own party, the last meeting I went to turned outright hostile. Certain factions don't ever want to hear criticism of self ID, whether it comes from a woman or a man.

Now...I think this issue is too big. It could destroy a lot of innocent lives if it ever gets through (and no, I don't believe that is hyperbolic)

Sadly for that reason, until this is sorted at least, I do not want to see Labour in power and would vote accordingly.

And I'll camp out right on that last stand hill with any woman, man or transsexual, whatever their political leanings.

The reason I asked what the "transphobes" comment on Twitter was about is that where people draw that line is important in terms of what compromises they're willing to make. Clearly I agree with Jennifer on the AWS issue and on the fact that women don't have cocks. So far so good. Vehemently disagree on making alliances dependent on unquestioning support for Corbyn, or even on support for Labour in general - this issue is too big and impacts women on the right and in the center too. Not sure where she stands on issues like the cotton ceiling, changing rooms, etc, though hopefully "women don't have penises" covers most of it.

I think what may have happened was that Jennifer assumed that anyone supporting the fundraiser was either a party member or very much pro Labour and just hadn't joined the party for whatever reason, and was therefore a bit blindsided by the discovery that in fact women from all over the political spectrum donated because they're concerned about the impact of self-ID in general and wanted a test case to happen. Hopefully she will at some point take that on board and decide that strategic alliances are needed in order to tackle the broader issues with self-ID and trans activism in general, but the insistence that everyone have the same level of enthusiasm for Corbyn that she does and the general hostility towards women who don't see things exactly the way she does is a potential problem. I really don't think it's possible to tackle this issue in a throw your support behind one party/individual and they'll take care of it way, because it's seeped into too many areas that will all need to be worked through.

I think we can also safely say that there is good possibility that the Tories only ever saw this as a way to get some socially liberal votes without having to compromise on right wing economic policies. It was never something the whole party actually cared about

I'm sure of that. It costs nothing to implement and sounded good.

Got a reply from my MP today - it's very wet, and he's basically chinned me off, but I suppose the more people that bring it to their attention, the better really.
(He's a Tory btw):

"Thank you for your email.
^
I am grateful to you for making me aware of your views and I fully appreciate your concerns. You make your points powerful and I have great sympathy with your point of view.

I know that this is an incredibly sensitive and contentious issue, and one to which the Government must respond carefully. I of course want to support those dealing with gender dysphoria but you are right to point out that this should not be to the detriment of women.

I have noted your concerns and I want to thank you again for taking the trouble to make me aware of your views.

With very best wishes,^"

That is likely as good as it will bet at this stage of the conflict.
The admission that it has the potential to be to the detriment of women is possibly significant.

That response is miles better than responses we have seen from Labour or Green MPs.

He didn't even call you a bigot! Progress.

Do people get called bigots by their MPs?!

I'd have been RAGING if he'd done that!! 😂

Do people get called bigots by their MPs?!

Well one has allegedly told a constituent to piss off. Not to do with This, but still.

twitter.com/GuidoFawkes/status/963817180168155136