19 year old DD tells me ALL boys want to throttle.

[Spidermama]

I've just been left feeling really angry and powerless. DD tells me pretty much all boys 'even nice ones' like to put their hands around girl's throats semi strangling them as part of sex. She's told me other horrible things about what girls her age are fully expected to put up with.
She says the boys get it from porn and there's nothing unusual about it.

I and I'm sure many of us women, have put up with things during sex that we've not really liked just to get it over with. But this is getting ridiculous! It makes me so sad to think of all these young women having to put up with these levels of violence and hatred in something which is supposed to be enjoyable for them.

What can she do. I know how hard it is to stop things being done to you mid act.

I feel sick and should not have clicked that link. Those poor women. I don’t give a shit that men are disappointed women don’t let them hurt them with impunity in order for them to reenact what they’ve been watching in filmed abuse. It’s really up to men who watch pornography to grow up and sort themselves out and stop peddling this as liberation.

Christ, my poor dc who will have to grow up in a world where men strangle, cut and bruise women, film it and sell it to other men as a sexual act that they should be doing with women they say they love. It’s horrific and indefensible.

A lot is being said about the huge numbers of women who are getting in to porn, so where is the reverse?

Where are all the "man gets pegged till he cries" videos? "Man banged hard and whipped" Spitting in his face etc?

As I said previously down the thread I am going to a therapist because of some of things I have seen on pornhub, it is giving me PTSD. There is one video which hasn't made it onto Suzzan's Blog which stopped me from sleeping. As well as the damage two men did to this teenage girl's body I just don't know how one psychologically would recover from such an experience. It has left me heart-broken. This content is freely accessed, on the most popular porn website, advertised on our highstreet. Its not not hard to find, we are not entering special codes or trawling the darkest areas of the web.

The comparison to gay porn makes it even more striking, as Valentinesfart argues the violence is only being perpetrated against women and girls.

As Andrea Dworkin argued in the 80s, 'pornography is propaganda in the war on women'.

'pornography is propaganda in the war on women'.

Yes.

Look after yourself Contemporary

Pankhurst there are no words. I’m going to try my best not to think about it anymore but my estimation of anyone defending modern pornography is lower than ever. I didn’t really understand at the start of this thread you could watch people getting properly strangled and it was marketed to you as both consensual and perfectly ordinary. I thought in the U.K. there were things you couldn’t consent to and would always be a crime so I don’t understand how this stuff has become legitimised - I feel very naive.

Thank you TallulahWaitingInTheRain HandbagKrabby, will try to. The sisterhood is supportive & so is hubby.

After seeing this stuff i'm just impatient for change. We need to recognise it for what it is and stop it.

Consent becomes murky when its a women. The famous you can't consent to that was the Spanner case, sometimes known as R vs Brown - a group of gay men were convicted of assault for filmed BDSM, the court threw out the defence of consent. This was upheld in the appeal court, however the judges singled out homosexuality - so consent defence could still be used if a man tortured a woman. This changed in 1999 with R vs Emmitt which held that the same rules should apply to heterosexual BDSM. BUT - because women aren't seen as fully human or equal by the law it appears that consent is only recognised when a man says a woman consented. Look at rape cases where the woman says she did not consent, still hard to get a conviction. Abortion - needs the approval of two doctors so women's consent alone is still not trusted. It is only when a man's orgasm is involved that suddenly men become experts in a woman's consent and what she can supposedly consent too widens.

With the question of how widespread porn sex is becoming/ the influence of porn on behaviour this is a letter written to Owen Jones by a 23 year old after Jones defended men's use of porn:

realforwomen.wordpress.com/2015/04/08/in-response-to-owen-jones-rosie-redstockings-on-porn/

Good for her

TheBrilliantMistake

I think you overestimate how much men think when watching porn.

It's not that they necessarily consciously think it, but there can be no doubt many are having their perception of reality radically altered.
They are evidently starting to think that porn is real, and their actual partners are a poor substitute (unless they act out the porn).

It's not every single man, but it's way too many men this is happening to imo.

Oh of course, I didn't mean to say your post is inaccurate, I agree with it. For sure it will shape our view. It was meant a bit tongue-in-cheek and a bit what you said, it's not as much active but subconsciously forming a degrading view/expectation.

Christ, my poor dc who will have to grow up in a world where men strangle, cut and bruise women, film it and sell it to other men as a sexual act that they should be doing with women they say they love. It’s horrific and indefensible.

I shouldn’t have clicked either. It’s very much worse than I could’ve imagined.

As I said previously down the thread I am going to a therapist because of some of things I have seen on pornhub, it is giving me PTSD.

I understand. I heard a horrific story on the radio that I’ve had difficulty with, and that was very second hand. Take care of yourself.

Many pankhurst.

I did click on that link and got half way through and stopped myself. So clear the difference. The kissing really stood out to me actually (as did the other things of course) - such a basic simple first act of real sex not seemingly granted to women any more.

Good on Rosie; did Owen respond?

Reading that it again it highlighted the generational difference between the 90s: early 00s and now in terms of how obliged women feel to do things. I do feel I may have felt obliged at times in the early days but came to decisions for myself quite quickly without any worry about what would be thought of me.

What can be done now?

Could someone like Julie Bindel be asked to write a piece that could potentially get into mainstream media/ newspapers?

Thank you hipsterfun and Ekphrasis,

Alas, St. Owen of Bromentum did not respond.

There is a lot of new to contend with. The obligation is new. The level of violence is new but it is the obligation I think.
On why women cannot just say 'no':
victimfocus.wordpress.com/2018/02/15/from-broadband-to-sex-the-problem-with-teaching-women-to-just-say-no/
Young men have more sexual entitlement than ever before and I think it is because our culture is pornified. This message is everywhere not just in porn.
It is all over t.v., just a few instances include 'The Girls Next Door' (Playboy mansion), Wild Cats (prostitution ranch outside Vegas), Girls Gone Wild (Drunk women on holiday), all of the Babestation stuff.
Music, well radio is now misogyny fm. Every message is that women are there for men's pleasure.
Its in the clothes we are sold - that whole 'trend' for bondage bras/tops/bikinis, the difficulty of getting a reasonable hem line (its either floor length or bum is cold).
Also, the sexualising of pain is increasing - heterosexual porn now has the pain as the main point. It is in the titles and highlighted in the text. The video then highlights it either through focusing on the pain on the women's faces or in the audio or both. The pain is the purpose.

Julie could but she is one voice and it is very difficult to get this view into the mainstream - particularly as we have lost the Guardian because of trans opposition to Julie.

To do: first things first, talk about porn far and wide. At school gates, in work, on facebook, on twitter. The horror you have seen.
Second, sticker and flyer cubicles (Untameable Shrews are good for designs which can be printed). Make a fuss about Ann Summers - particularly writing to the Children's Trust over J. Gold's association with pornhub, if she losses her position that will make headlines. Placard protest your local Ann Summers - a Saturday Protest handing out information when you feel brave enough or have got a group together.
Ann Summers creates a space to talk about pornhub and thus pornography.

Just reading about a PP saying that she finds it hard to believe that people who like to harm themselves during sex must have had previous coercion or harm done to them.

I really honestly don't know where my kinks came from. Yeah, I read a lot of fanfiction, but I was already getting turned on by those things as I was reading them, so I must have already have them? I wasn't sexually abused as a kid yet was into incest-sex and non-con stuff since I can remember. It really turned me on, even at 13. Who knows? Maybe I was secretly abused by my stepdad or something and these fantasies are what I'm left with

Clicked on those links last night. Big mistake. Can’t stop thinking about it and my PFB girl.

Alpine it's likely to be the way you first heard about it - the context etc.

Incest repulses me. I probably heard about it through a bible story first or the rumours about a child at secondary School who had utterly terrible hygiene habits (and it possibly was true they were a result of incest as ss were involved with her.) So maybe it simply didn't occur to be some would seek it out.

In terms of a sexual link I probably was only aware of it when much, much older, after I'd heard and read of far too many child sex abuse cases where it's usually the parents/ siblings abusing. To me, simply associated with abuse. There was the story line on Brookside but that was more about love and I remember psychological documentaries talking about how siblings separated before a certain age often had magnetic attraction for each other; after around the age of 3 it didn't happen (hazy memory of the exact details there).

I wondered about the JB/ guardian issue.

Stacy Dooley has been impressing me recently and certainly was reporting on R4 the other day on "from our own correspondent" I think. I wonder if she could be encouraged?

Ekphrasis

It's sad, because I generally can't get sexually excited unless I imagine being hurt or abused now. When my boyfriend has sex with me, I imagine I'm drugged and can't do anything or that he's related to me. It's fucked up, but I don't know how to stop it now. ((He knows about all this, but he's not into it)). Can you rewire that type of association?

And yeah there's Genetic Sexual Attraction - Genetic sexual attraction (GSA) is a term for an overwhelming sexual attraction that may develop between close blood relatives who first meet as adults.

I have a friend who has a job educating young people about sexual health and the number of young women/girls ( 15-19) who have anal sex unprotected because 1) they won;t get pregnant 2) the boys expect it according to her is absolutely staggering. Yes the boys get it from porn. and protection is far down the worry list for the girls because they think it's 'safer' than vagina sex. And they're worried they 'lose' their boyfriend if they don't comply. The boys too she says are fairly ignorant about the kind of things they can catch having unprotected sex because they're doing it with friends or girlfriends so assume they must be 'clean'.

Alpine - do you want it to change? It sounds trite but it's the first step with all change. If you do you would need to find a psycho-sexual therapist and you would want to make sure you are getting a good one.

Stacy would be fab. I've been enjoying her documentaries. Potentially.

Jo from Critical Sisters has managed to get this into the New Statesman:
www.newstatesman.com/politics/feminism/2018/02/ann-summers-pornhub-sex-toys-women

If we start with the assumption that a little boy and little girl start with a clean slate (in terms of prejudice / misogyny etc), then we have to look that what is happening during the first 19 years of a boys life that is shaping his mentality.

We could probably say that an awful lot of gender stereotypes are already being imposed on a child from the outset, but even if we accept a small boy and small girl might have been guiding down stereotypical paths, at what point does the very first seed of violence set in? Is it when the boy starts to be conditioned to be be 'strong' mentally and physically? i.e. When a small boy might attempt to dominate a girl in a school playground (say 3-4)? Or is it something that happens a lot later, at the onset of puberty, when sexual curiosity leads both the boy and girl to seek out material / knowledge, and with the advent of the internet, their very first searches results are likely have PornHub at the top of their list?

However and whenever the boy starts to change, we do know that by the time they are seeking to be sexually active, there's already a sizeable percentage of young boys with some seriously twisted views about sex with women.

What I'm really trying to say in a long winded way, is that this is a form of child abuse isn't it? That we are completely messing up their perceptions about sex even before they become adults. It's society's job to care for it's children, and yet we are failing them.

In as few as (perhaps) 16 years, we may well have managed to nurture millions of warped boys and pressurised girls.

Great analysis TheBrilliantMistake! It is a public health/child abuse scandal of our age.

It's sad, because I generally can't get sexually excited unless I imagine being hurt or abused now. When my boyfriend has sex with me, I imagine I'm drugged and can't do anything or that he's related to me. It's fucked up, but I don't know how to stop it now. ((He knows about all this, but he's not into it)). Can you rewire that type of association?

Yes I think you can rewire that thinking.
Imagine the situation where once upon a time you derived a small amount of pleasure from a small taboo thought...
It felt good, and so you explored the taboo thought a little more...
Slowly the taboo gets deeper and your pleasure seems to keep increasing... to the point where it feels like the only way to get such intense pleasure is to indulge in such intense taboo thoughts.

With me so far?

Now imagine you could rewind, and discover a different 'little thought' that pleased you... perhaps something as simple as very sensual kissing, or massage etc...
You could, in time, spiral deeper and deeper into those thoughts and acts in a way that gave you more and more sexual pleasure right?

As things stand right now, you're getting your best kicks (or only kicks) from the very taboo thoughts, and possibly crave the taboo thoughts that give you fantastic feelings. But really, it's the fantastic feelings you crave right?
Putting aside the chemical dependency on drugs, it's similar to a drug addict who might be hooked on heroin. What he's actually addicted to is the feeling that heroin is giving him, but just assumes heroin in the only route to it. You're in that same situation. You've locked into the assumption that taboo / incest thoughts are the only route to intense sexual pleasure.

Rewind and try to discover just something that might give you only a little pleasure - then start 'spiralling' into that instead... eventually, you might be deriving incredible pleasure from the most sensual and intimate massages (or whatever floats your boat!). Only it'll be a hell of a lot healthier for your mind and soul than incest etc.

I think for most people there's one or two things that really gets them off... but that intensity evolved (just like yours did). You just have to back up and start evolving something a little healthier!