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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

19 year old DD tells me ALL boys want to throttle.

448 replies

Spidermama · 11/02/2018 21:01

I've just been left feeling really angry and powerless. DD tells me pretty much all boys 'even nice ones' like to put their hands around girl's throats semi strangling them as part of sex. She's told me other horrible things about what girls her age are fully expected to put up with.
She says the boys get it from porn and there's nothing unusual about it.

I and I'm sure many of us women, have put up with things during sex that we've not really liked just to get it over with. But this is getting ridiculous! It makes me so sad to think of all these young women having to put up with these levels of violence and hatred in something which is supposed to be enjoyable for them.

What can she do. I know how hard it is to stop things being done to you mid act.

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Ekphrasis · 17/02/2018 12:21

Actually, a good website which I hadn't looked at before.

TheBrilliantMistake · 17/02/2018 12:41

Like food manufacturers using excessive levels of salts and sugars, they've actually shaped men's tastes.
I don't know if telling them how bad it is for them, and ultimately disastrous for girls will change their habits. It might for some, and that's a good thing, but the masses are addicted to their sexual diet.
Could they be reversed via the porn industry shaping them in a better direction? Maybe. But using an abusive industry to brainwash boys to be better is still abusive.
If kids are venturing onto porn sites at 11, that's 5 significant years of abuse before even reach 16, and no doubt they've already attempted things way beyond the first tentative rumblings between a boy and girl of 30 years ago.

Ifonlyus · 17/02/2018 16:22

I've been following this post for days and building up comments so apologies for spewing it all out in one long ramble now I have a small window of time.

I found this article, posted up thread, particularly insightful. www.nytimes.com/2018/02/07/magazine/teenagers-learning-online-porn-literacy-sex-education.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur It writes about how both teenage girls and boys are accessing (the same violent and degrading) porn to learn how to have sex. The programmes they reference the young people attending are not whole-school education programmes, sadly. I feel frustrated that schools haven’t been fast enough to incorporate teaching about pornography during sex and relationship education. The NY Times article says there is no established evidence-base for how to teach young people about the reality and harm of porn - which I appreciate makes it difficult for schools - but goodness, just start somewhere with something at least. It also says how desperate the people are on the programme to know what they ‘should’ be doing, what does good, mutually-enjoyable sex look like… but the programme facilitators point out it wouldn’t be ethical for them to give specific instruction - which I can see is an issue schools have.

Perhaps there needs to be a reading list or film recommendations where young people can see what that looks like. Decades before the internet and easy access to porn, that’s where we got that information from or else fumbling experimentation, still with the knowledge that it was supposed to be good for both parties. I would be onboard with a campaign to or movement which informs young women (and men!) about the joy of sex not influenced by degrading pornography. I do think the negatives of porn need to be taught too, especially where there is data for undeniable harm such as medical stats on damage caused by anal sex, the risk of erectile dysfunction, a look at the industry and the lack of ethics (which can resonate with teens) But a pro-female sex stance which empowers women to understand their desires and speak out against men would be welcome too.

This thread has been both informative and horrifying.
I want to do take more action (I have written to my MP and DDs school in the past) but I don’t know what else I can do without sacrificing my mental wellbeing. I can't handle delving deeper or reading accounts of what people are watching but then don't feel qualified to advise other people. The horror of it helps to keep those who would be concerned ignorant.

Why does it need to be women’s job to become familiar with the content, to share that knowledge with our friends and family, to protest outside Anne Summers. Ought it not be the role of someone in government or public health to be informed on this and taking action? If GPs are reporting that they are seeing an increase in damage caused by anal sex in young females, is that not enough to warrant a health campaign? Who is connecting the dots and who is responsible for doing something? Are there posters up about that in University corridors or just the ones inviting students to a career in sex work?

Maybe 6th forms, colleges and universities should be mandated to tackle this as it’s the last place where young people will be a captive audience after the age of consent.

Are there any charities or women’s organisations which distribute better information about sex to young women or information which helps to empower them? I’d be happy to contribute. Likewise, are there any websites/books/leaflets that we can direct parents and/or teenagers to be better informed and advise them when and how to talk to their children? Do any schools send out information that lets parents know what today's porn consists of? I have the Self Esteem Team Guide to sex drugs and wtfs which I think is aimed at older school age teens, and that has a chapter on porn sex Vs real sex which I'll share with my teen DD soon.

In a nutshell. I'm sick of being annoyed about what I read on a daily basis and I would like to be part of a collective action which is showing promise in having an effect. Can anyone direct me to a positive campaign/organisation/charity where I can get more information and help, but without it being the type of place where I am going to be exposed to more horrors than my mental health can handle?

Momo18 · 17/02/2018 16:31

In my experience I've never had sex with a man who enjoyed this and I did have a lot of one night stands etc when I was younger. I'm a bit older then your DD but young enough to know the impacts of the porn culture and its effects on women. Obviously I can't speak for all women but the only adverse effects I've experienced from porn is that a lot of men think good sex is banging away like what they are in porn hmm.

VaguelyAware · 17/02/2018 19:07

I have been looking at The Untameable Shrews... I'm definitely up for doing that. Does anyone else do it / would they be interested?

IPokeBadgers · 18/02/2018 18:04

Can i make a request/suggestion please? This thread has been enlightening and depressing and upsetting in equal measure. I thought I knew about porn but some of the links that have been posted are truely horrifying, as well as many that are well written and educational without the full horror of the sites posted by the likes of Pankhurst.

As a complement/supplement to this thread, could someone start a new thread just for links to relevant sites and articles on this subject, so that anyone who wants to read and learn more about this can do so more easily? This is obviously a subject that is so important, a huge issue for women and we need to know more.

VaguelyAware · 18/02/2018 22:04

I definitely second IPokeBadgers suggestion.

holycheeseplant · 18/02/2018 22:20

Good idea. (I've nc to talk more freely as a great deal on these boards links to my work)

VaguelyAware · 18/02/2018 22:36

I would start a new thread, but frankly I don't feel qualified.

QuentinSummers · 18/02/2018 22:43

Why not vaguely? Please do start a thread :)

VaguelyAware · 18/02/2018 23:54

Ok; new thread here

Ifonlyus · 19/02/2018 07:40

Thanks Betti for that link to the kickstarter. That's just the kind of thing I was looking for.

I'll go visit the other new thread too - good idea

TheGoalIsToStayOutOfTheHole · 19/02/2018 16:36

A couple of years back now..on big brother there was a contestant who was Marco Pierre Whites son. On 'normal' BB. He was enacting porn scenes with a woman he had just met, though he was asking her to strangle him. So many of DSDs friends were commenting about hot 'hot' it was. I only knew about this as DSD was aghast at their reactions to it and showed me. Most of them were saying how they would prefer it done to them, than for them to do it to a boy. Surely they don;t actually think this and are just trying to win points with the guys who have been addled by huge amounts of porn? Its scary really. Luckily DSD does not seem to play along with this being 'normal' and 'desirable' but I worry for other young girls (and boys tbh)

Spidermama · 19/02/2018 17:31

Wow! This thread had about 8 posts on when I left it. What an incredible discussion. Thanks so much for all the support, suggestions and experiences you've shared. I feel far more informed. Things are even worse than I thought they were.

ContemporaryPankhurst you are absolutely brilliant. I can barely believe you're not yet 30. You are doing fantastic and vital work and I'm so sorry it's affecting your sleep and your mental well being. Massive respect to you. I don't feel I can click on some of your links because I don't want to be hated any more than I already am. However you've inspired me to get more active.

Special mentions too to AngryAttackKittens, ValentinesFart and TERFousBreakdown for your work on this thread.

I'm barely on MN these days but I'm certainly being enticed back by the excellent Feminism topic.

xxx

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ContemporaryPankhurst · 19/02/2018 19:32

Sorry IPokeBadgers the reality of porn is absolute horror, I wish it wasn't and I wish no one had to see those images. Nevertheless, I think with proper content warnings it is something which needs to be faced up to. Words can never do it justice, 'violence' 'torture' can't really describe what is happening and being consumed adequately. It is like when the news shows bombed children or Alan Kurdi being found dead on the beach.

I think the articles list/resources page is a brilliant idea.

Spidermama thank you so much for starting this thread and what has been a brilliant conversation on the topic. Thank you for your kind comments, it was the links to Suzzan's blog which turned me. Once I had seen what was on there I could never stay silent and it was going to be my life's wok to end this (alongside my actual work). Hubby was tempted to inform Prevent as I had been radicalised online - from Liberal Feminism to radical feminism in an evening. As you may have gathered IPokeBadgers there is content on there which there are not words to describe.

Twitter, Facebook and in real life NotBuyingIt, Critical Sisters, ObjectUK and others are a growing anti-porn voice and network of women. Object has just come back for an encore so is growing slowly. Lets all go after Ann Summers and pornhub together!

Gail Dines is the porn expert she has a resources page and her website is pretty great: gaildines.com/resources/

I have been working away for the weekend so will now spend some time reading through this thread properly.

ContemporaryPankhurst · 19/02/2018 19:42

Valentinesfart I second what HandbagKrabby is saying and the comparison to gun laws. This is betraying my age but I am shocked when I find out that possession of a handgun/other gun was legal in the U.K. then Dunblane and now I come from a generation who couldn't imagine it. They used to make cars without seat belts now it is so natural to put a seat belt on that seems like a tall tale, it is a culture change. The law essentially says what we as a society deem permissible. We need law change.

With regards to the prudish/religious arguments that is such a good comparison. Yet, RadFem is coming back. The neoliberal lie of Liberal Feminism a.k.a. patriarchy with a purse is about to enter an era of 1970s esq fightback I think.

ContemporaryPankhurst · 19/02/2018 19:50

gosh, one of my comments sounded sarcastic it meant to read:
'as you may have gathered from IpokeBadgers ' Sorry about that.

ContemporaryPankhurst · 19/02/2018 22:25

Once again as if by magic the dead looking models and corpse posing on BBC news: www.facebook.com/bbcnews/videos/10155567407497217/

Check out the comments

AngryAttackKittens · 19/02/2018 22:32

The corpse-like posing in the fashion industry is an indication of how much this stuff seeps into the mainstream and the way porn and mainstream media feed off each other. I noticed the issue in fashion photography before I'd ever seen porn.

(BTW Contemporary Pankhurst, random, we seem to have a friend in common, she emailed me a while back asking if I could post some links for you in this thread. Small world!)

holycheeseplant · 19/02/2018 22:55

Its a very common theme in the history of art too - think Ophelia by and going back many years before then. Actually, you could probably blame many of those 'dead' images on the pre raphaelite esque style.

I did come across a PhD over 20 years ago that explored how women were often depicted in art as dead or dying. Unfortunately it'll be referenced in my thesis on a floppy disc now.

Namebot · 19/02/2018 23:10

I doubt it’s coincidental that one of the women who complained about Brendan Cox described him grabbing her by the throat.

I’m a secondary school teacher and though it’s not my field I can definitely concur that porn is harming teens both physically and mentally. My heart breaks for my children and having to prepare them to navigate this.

MaryBread · 02/05/2018 11:18

Brilliant thread.

I'm about to look at all of the recommended links to ways to take action.
Thank you.

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