Can you all just lay off trans people

[cjferg]

There is a difference between sex and gender. Some people's align, other people's don't. Some people are biologically female, and their gender doesn't match that and vies versa. Some people don't have a gender. Why do you care so much?

One of my best friends in school was biologically a female. When he 'came out' to me as trans and explained how he had never felt comfortable in his body all I thought (and anyone who knew him) was that I wasn't surprised and that it made a lot of sense and we all got on with our lives. This was about age 17 and he said he had known this since he was a kid (not saying that any kid who says they want to should be able to willy nilly block their hormones, etc, btw)
It wasn't just about 'presenting as a male'. He was actually a male in a female body.
Yes, when he started presenting as male he felt a lot better. I remember he didn't want to go to our prom because of all the dressing up, etc. until we suggested he wear a tux, and it was amazing to see him so comfortable.
But still he hated having tits and having to wear a binder (can be done safely if you get a proper binder and don't just use bandages or w/e so don't even start)
It wasn't enough to just stuff the front of the trousers.
I repeat, he was a man trapped in a woman's body. Not just a cross dressing woman, not just in an experimental phase.

I have another friend who is biologically a female but they don't have a gender. They are known as 'they' not 'he'or 'she' and knowing them you would in no way think that they are either male or female, again not just about looking a certain way.

I also see a lot of people on here ranting about trans people and they literally only care about transwomen. Genuinely, what has happend to you that you feel so threatened at the thought of someone with a penis being the same gender as you?

Stop ranting about how men are going to use it as an excuse to perv on your kid in a changing room. I'd bet quite a lot that more women will perv on your kid in a changing room than men pretending to be trans will.

Gender is evolving all the time there are no definitive rules to being a man or a woman.

For every thing that you think being a woman is, there will be a woman who disagrees with you.
You say that being a woman means having a uterus - does that make people who've had theirs removed for medical reasons not women?

If being a woman means the ability to have babies then does that mean infertile women aren't women?

If you think being a man is the ability to grow facial hair does that mean that men who can't aren't men?

I read about a woman who had poly cystic ovaries and had a luxurious, thick beard and moustache as a result. Does that mean she is a man or less of a woman? Or should she have continued to try and shave and wax it off and be ashamed of it rather than accept herself the way she was and rock the beard?

Seriously, we've come a long way from being a woman meaning you're your husband's property and having to squirt out babies and clean your whole life. Why are you so determined to go backwards?

Stop using the teeny possibility of a man pretending to be trans to invade women's spaces as a vehicle for your hatred and open your mind enough to at least try and understand the issue, because it might be your kid. It might be your dad. It might be your bff 4eva. If that were the case would you ostracise them from your life and declare them a fraud, or have a little empathy and try and support them through something potentially life changing.

drops mic

The issue with pink (and football / soccer) for me is that it is the other way around to your theory: there is a consistent narrative with TIMs that goes "I knew from a young age that I was actually a girl because I liked pink things / playing with dolls / playing soccer." NOT "I play soccer because it affirms that I am a girl" or "wearing pink makes me happy because it signifies to the world that I am a girl"

I find this really interesting, and what I imagine the position is is that when you're young you lack the self-awareness to be able to analyse your behaviour. So you may be subconsciously drawn to signalling yourself as a girl before you come to the conclusion that your doing so is in fact your attempt to express something inside yourself that could also be called "gender". (I say "also" because quite clearly people use gender to mean the social construct, but people also use it to mean something innate which comes from within.)

Olennas,

Yes, but the fact that they are failing to understand the cause and effect of their own behaviour does not mean that there may not be 'something' to trans.

Personally, I suspect (but clearly do not know) that 90% of trans is a combination of mass hysteria and advantage taking by dodgy men. That does not mean that there is not an underlying population of 'genuine' trans people. I do struggle to see how there would suddenly be 1,000% more trans people than when i was growing up, if it is hormonal or genetic.

There clearly is a social contagion, but what I cannot understand is why there isn't more research being done on why there is such a prevalence of gender non conformity in autistic people. When I began to look into this online I found two things 1) extreme male brain theory; the idea that autistic boys have an extreme male brain and autistic girls also have male brains (which falls down a little bit in light of the prevalence of mtf transgenderism in autistic boys!) , and 2) suggestions that autistic children shouldn't be assumed not to be trans just because they insist on delaying their identity change until the hormones kick in! Nothing at all about the obvious answer that autistic children don't pick up on social cues and therefore fail to internalise gender. They are, effectively, gender immune. As a parent of such a child I say it is a marvellous thing to behold and you could never now convince me that gender comes from within or that we choose it.

The good thing about the ranty plopper threads with the really atrocious mic drops (still laughing!) is that after the first few pissed off responses, some really good conversations ensue.

larry - I absolutely believe that there is a group of people who feel very strongly that they are "in the wrong body" and they get immense relief by presenting as the opposite sex to the best of their abilities. These are what used to be called transsexuals, and many are pretty gender critical themselves, recognising that they have not changed and cannot change sex.

I also agree that social contagion is playing a huge part in the current wave of teens who identify as trans (along with that perennial, homophobia). When I was at school there were a spate of girls with anorexia; I suspect nowadays that they would be self-IDing as boys.

And yy, SarahCarer, the lack of research (in fact, lack of acknowledgement) about the prevalance of TIM who are autistic and / or are in IT is astounding

Rat - you might be right that "liking pink" is perhaps a chicken and egg thing. And it's hard to escape some of the narrative that actually comes from parents rather than from the individuals themselves (looking at you , Mrs Jennings.....) so becomes accepted truth by the child who cannot in all reality remember unpoppering their babygro to make a dress when they were 15 months old, or whatever.

Seriously, we've come a long way from being a woman meaning you're your husband's property and having to squirt out babies and clean your whole life. Why are you so determined to go backwards?

So this is my question, in order to stop a male hetero sexual fetish becoming in law a female sex characteristic I am determined to go back in time and start cleaning and squirting babies. However, will anyone know why I am doing it?

OP
Genuine question: What part of someone is it that is born in the wrong body?

Do you think the OP will come back?

a male hetero sexual fetish becoming in law a female sex characteristic

When you put it like that, it is bloody chilling.

Do you think the OP will come back?

He's probably too busy consoling his weeping friend.

None of the other OPs who've started this type of thread have ever come back so I'd be amazed if this one did.

When you put it like that, it is bloody chilling.

Any any prosecutions for sex offences will be recorded as crimes committed by women.

The problem is gender roles are so entrenched in our society that its no good saying do/wear what the f* you want but don't change gender. Especially for boys/men. I remember a boy at school who was bullied physically and socially for so much as having ANYTHING pink, and wearing girly clothes outwith school. Men and boys might find the female gender role attractive or find masculine norms toxic and that transitioning is the only way out. Thats societies problem, but a problem it remains.

I think of a Star Wars series where men in the space station are wearing dresses due to the supposed complete gender equality of futuristic times, even if biology is unquestionably different. Most of us won't live to see such a society.

Wow 11 pages & OP never came back. Shocker

MoseShrute
DN4
Thank you in particular for your posts

@DN4GeekinDerby your post at Sat 10-Feb-18 18:30:30 is brilliant and I am so very grateful for people like you who are willing to come and share your honest experiences. It makes ploughing through all this stuff worthwhile to find the gems of people being honest about their experiences.

One of the many things about this that really chaps my hide is that my kids, both boys, wore pink and peach in the early eighties and men's dress shirts were pink. It was perfectly ordinary. The sex roles were not being enforced a mere thirty years ago to the degree they are now.

@larrygrylls "I can link to plenty of research that shows that gendered behaviour is innate." Please do.

But a the same time can you explain how something that varies in time and space can actually be innate to humans?

A man in a powdered wig and ruffles was performing masculinity in the reign of Louie X1V, but in another location or at another time what it meant to perform masculinity meant something very different.

I personally do think some males feel much better presenting as females and vice versa, this means they are taking those things that society says are 'feminine' and using them to project a feminine image, I get that. It may well be true too of females who feel very disenfranchised from being women.

Luckily for young women who are attracted to other women and feel they want to appear in a very butch way, there is a community of other butch lesbians and there is a place to feel more at home. I am told by my friend who is an HSTS (Homosexual Transexual) that the gay community is not very welcoming of effeminate gay men, and since efemijnate gay men are (apparently) attracted to straight men, I can see why those who are able to pass as women may well chose to transition early.

However, being attracted to things that are normally associated with the opposite sex, or being attracted to things that are normally associated with one's own sex, is not IMHO proof that these likes are innate. I expect you've seen this explanation of social construct, I think it works well.

snowflakeespecial.tumblr.com/post/114684943185/social-construct-masterpost

The important thing is that in our society we have no further need of gender, women are working out it is used to keep us down, wearing high crippling heels, worrying about our nails etc etc. Now we get a say, we can say no to it all. So anyone can wear those shoes, or nails, or dresses or trousers, and it can mean nothing.

Therefore only those who have actual body dysforia will need to have any medical intervention.

But with or without medical intervention males remain male and females remain female.

Boy George when nobody cared about gender. Amazing.

@SarahCarer "Nothing at all about the obvious answer that autistic children don't pick up on social cues and therefore fail to internalise gender. They are, effectively, gender immune. As a parent of such a child I say it is a marvellous thing to behold and you could never now convince me that gender comes from within or that we choose it."

This is an interesting take on the subject. I also wonder about the fact that autistic people do not necessarily feel at home in the world and may conclude they are not at home in their own skin.

Completely agree @OlennasWimple re 'social contagion', it is very dangerous indeed.

Sex roles, what you call gendered behavior, varies from culture to culture which clearly demonstrates that beyond reproductive roles there is no innate gendered behavior.

MoseShrute, is it not possible for a boy/man to be ASD and have gender dysphoria? Or are they mutually exclusive in your view? I personally know one transwoman who is ASD and hear there are disproportionately large numbers, whether diagnosed or not, GRC or not. Or if their ASD has contributed to dysphoric feelings, then does it matter?

FYI, you are aware that your position that trans people are in the 'wrong body' is terribly transphobic under the current vocal trans ideology?

Very interesting conversation. Can someone explain this for me. Thanks!

I cannot get the sense of it either, Rosie. I think they may be taking the piss.