'Engaging trans people in swimming' (aka penises are ok in the lady's changing rooms, but transmen must cover their breasts)

[pisacake]

www.swimming.org/library/documents/2857/download

"You may need to do some education work with other centre users who may be concerned when sharing a
space with a trans person, especially if a trans customer looks to have different physical characteristics to the
gender they are identifying with i.e. a male to female trans customer who has not had top or bottom surgery
may still look like a male to others, and conversely with female to male trans customers.
"

"You should adopt a zero tolerance policy on any transphobic
behaviour from staff or centre users.

1. Try to encourage your workforce to be aware of any potential
   

transphobia likely to happen before or after a session, both in or
around the centre, and empower them to challenge transphobic
language, attitudes and behaviours from other staff members,
customers and the general public too."

"Some swimmers who were born female but now identify
differently may wear what is called a ‘binder’ – this is a
tight piece of material that is wrapped around the top half
of the body in order to compress breasts to conceal them
behind clothing. This is perfectly safe to swim in, and
should be encouraged."

"Some swimmers may have a preference to wear less
clothing than usually expected. For example, some
swimmers may not want to wear anything on their top half,
so as to identify with their new gender, but if they have
not had top surgery this means that this person’s breasts
will be clearly visible. This needs to be talked about and an
amicable solution found. This may be appropriate to allow
during a trans specific session, but if a trans swimmer is
attending any other session in the timetable, then they
should be appropriately covered up – you wouldn’t allow a
woman to swim topless in a public session, and you need
to treat everyone the same."

So basically trans-identified women must cover up, but trans-identified men can shower nude with women and the women needed to be 'educated' to understand this. And if anyone complains turf them out under the 'zero tolerance against transphobia' policy.

[NatGrad59]

1. The Equality Act does allow for sex segregated spaces. These have to be applied for and have to show that it's a 'proportionate means to achieve a legitimate aim.' Since that can be achieved by requiring bathers to keep their costumes on except in cubicles an exclusion application would almost certainly fail.
   
2. How would I or anyone else know what is going on in someone's mind in a changing room or anywhere else? How do I know if someone is self identified, has gone through the GRC process or comes from Ireland, Malta, Denmark or Argentina where they have self ID gender recognition? What about if Scotland passes self ID gender recognition? Shall we develop a fear of tartan swimsuits?

[AngryAttackKittens]

So what about the women who currently have to use changing rooms without individual cubicles, because their local pool doesn't have those? The guidance suggests that in that case trans people should still be allowed to use the facilities they prefer. Women getting naked in front of whoever thinks they belong in the women's changing room and cocks out if the person with the cock believes that that's where they truly belong at those particular facilities, then?

"Well it'll be fine for me" is not a well thought out response to this issue.

[NatGrad59]

And one of those doctors must be a gender specialist, i.e. a psychiatrist. They will insist on evidence before the sign any letters.

[AngryAttackKittens]

The discussion about the GRC process is pointless unless facilities intend to ask for one any time a person who appears to be of one sex attempts to use the facilities designed for the other. There's no indication in the guidance that this is suggested, and many trans activists would scream bloody murder if it was. So, nothing to do with this particular issue.

[NatGrad59]

It's extremely unlikely that a trans person would want to be naked in such a situation due to their gender dysphoria.

[CertainHalfDesertedStreets]

The facts are that most pools I use have unisex Village Changing. At the pool I use in Barnsley there are sex segregated changing rooms and unisex family changing rooms. In all the changing rooms there's a rule of keeping cossies on except in cubicles. Some of the women I swim with use the unisex changing rooms because the changing cubicles are bigger.

Ah that's nice. Should I come to Barnsley to swim? It's a couple of hundred miles. When are the lanes sessions?

[LangCleg]

It's extremely unlikely that a trans person would want to be naked in such a situation due to their gender dysphoria.

Yes, but the point of being annoyed by Swim England deciding to issue guidance supporting self-ID is that a large proportion of self-identifying trans don't have dysphoria. That's why they want self-ID and demedicalisation, FFS.

You are wilfully missing the point.

[CertainHalfDesertedStreets]

Although a trans person with autogynephilia is going to be right up for it and THEY ARE THE ONES WE'RE CONCERNED ABOUT.

[NatGrad59]

So in other words bathers should just mind their business. I have at least 2 friends who are not trans who get challenged all the time.

[rowdywoman1]

NatGrad59
In the women's changing rooms in my gym (as countless people have pointed out) many women are unclothed. There are few cubicles and large communal spaces. So sex segregation exemptions are accepted.

As your examples illustrate, self ID ensures huge difficulties in identifying a paedophile, an autogynephile, a sexual harasser from a transsexual who has lived as a woman for 20 years. Thus rendering women unable to establish boundaries of safety for themselves or their children.

Do you have a view as to why transgender activists are so keen for women's boundaries to be breached in this way?

[NatGrad59]

How do you know they don't have dysphoria? Have you asked them? It might be that their dysphoria is so severe that the don't want to wait for 2 years for a first appointment.

[CertainHalfDesertedStreets]

It IS my business. It absolutely, 100% is my business. I'm safeguarding myself, my dd and all other girls and women.

[CertainHalfDesertedStreets]

How do you know they don't have dysphoria? Have you asked them?

How do you know they do?

[rowdywoman1]

It's not my place to question people about their mental illness. But it IS my place to ensure that where women and girls who are vulnerable by virtue of being naked or partially clothed, they are not in the company of those with sexual fetishes wishing to invade their privacy or worse.
What is wrong with that?

[AngryAttackKittens]

There have already been trans women stating that they full intend on being naked in public spaces like that as a form of "activism". You can debate whether or not those particular individuals are TrueTrans, but the problem is that the policy doesn't include any way to determine that (again, largely because trans activists would scream bloody murder if any such filtering process was attempted).

[NatGrad59]

The probably want something called equality - perhaps they might not want to wait for 20 years to go to the gym or go for a swim. Have there been any instances of any problems over the last 8 years?

[NatGrad59]

That's clearly breaking the law and I'd be the first on the phone.

[AngryAttackKittens]

I have a teenaged niece. Whether or not she's expected to change in front of any male person who decides that he belongs in her facilities is my business.

[CertainHalfDesertedStreets]

Let's be clear. No-one is talking about preventing anyone from going to the gym or for a swim.

The changing room for people with dicks is that way >>>>>>>>>

[NatGrad59]

Nothing. But how would you or I know. I'm all for action if someone does something offensive but I'm not going to challenge someone who just gets quietly changed in private, does their activity and leaves.

[AngryAttackKittens]

Your knowledge of how all this works is years out of date, Nat. Maybe do some reading, get yourself caught up, and then get back to us.

I mean, it's nice of you to offer to call in incidents and all, but that's not going to be much use to the women and girls who've already been flashed/had a male person who they don't know watch them undress.

[NatGrad59]

I don't. I'm not a psychiatrist.

[AngryAttackKittens]

Shame, if you were you might be in a better position to understand our concerns.

[NatGrad59]

Actually I have been flashed by a man in a changing rooms. He wasn't trans but there with his wife and kids. I've also been sexually assaulted by a man. He wasn't trans. I'm on our local police advisory group and the police forces of two counties and the Chief Prosecutor for the whole East Midlands says there isn't a problem.

[NatGrad59]

The only reason one needs a psychiatrist to understand concerns is if they're the result of some mental disorder.