'Engaging trans people in swimming' (aka penises are ok in the lady's changing rooms, but transmen must cover their breasts)

[pisacake]

www.swimming.org/library/documents/2857/download

"You may need to do some education work with other centre users who may be concerned when sharing a
space with a trans person, especially if a trans customer looks to have different physical characteristics to the
gender they are identifying with i.e. a male to female trans customer who has not had top or bottom surgery
may still look like a male to others, and conversely with female to male trans customers.
"

"You should adopt a zero tolerance policy on any transphobic
behaviour from staff or centre users.

1. Try to encourage your workforce to be aware of any potential

transphobia likely to happen before or after a session, both in or around the centre, and empower them to challenge transphobic language, attitudes and behaviours from other staff members, customers and the general public too."

"Some swimmers who were born female but now identify
differently may wear what is called a ‘binder’ – this is a
tight piece of material that is wrapped around the top half
of the body in order to compress breasts to conceal them
behind clothing. This is perfectly safe to swim in, and
should be encouraged."

"Some swimmers may have a preference to wear less
clothing than usually expected. For example, some
swimmers may not want to wear anything on their top half,
so as to identify with their new gender, but if they have
not had top surgery this means that this person’s breasts
will be clearly visible. This needs to be talked about and an
amicable solution found. This may be appropriate to allow
during a trans specific session, but if a trans swimmer is
attending any other session in the timetable, then they
should be appropriately covered up – you wouldn’t allow a
woman to swim topless in a public session, and you need
to treat everyone the same."

So basically trans-identified women must cover up, but trans-identified men can shower nude with women and the women needed to be 'educated' to understand this. And if anyone complains turf them out under the 'zero tolerance against transphobia' policy.

And how are you planning to stop those flashers coming into the women's changing rooms once self-id comes in? Goodwill?

This is not about trans people, it's about men?

THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT!

If a woman is in a public space or a women only space with a man being aggressive while not actually touching you, the police wont do anything, its your word against his.

This is not ok. Women only spaces are for women, not someone with a penis.

And yes, it has happened. Men claiming to be trans have assaulted women and girls in sex segregated areas. Google it.

What circumstances was the chief prosecutor for the East Midlands talking about and what data was he?using please?

Actually of course they have. That's why we need sex segregated places in the first place!

Do you understand what "self-id" means @NatGrad59?

Missing the point if this thread or what Nat?

Anyone with a penis flapping about in a communal changing room is not welcome and women have the power to ask that person to leave and/or report to the manager and/or police for indecent exposure.

That power is taken away if self ID is passed meaning any pervert with a cock can get his rocks off.

Old style transexuals would NOT be flapping their cocks about even if they were in communual changing rooms because they are very self conscious about being publicly naked.

If you want to wear frocks and 'behave' like a woman that's not an issue. Spaces for cock free women is the issue.

Self ID is a gateway for paedophiles, voyeurs and misogynists to intimidate women/girls. Our rights are being eroded before our very eyes. Wake up!

Sorry women's communal changing room

Haha the irony of my name 😂

He wasn't trans.

Why do I get the feeling you're completely missing the point @NatGrad59?

It is also worth pointing out that many of us have been sexually assaulted by men who were not trans. Ans we are only too aware that it is some of these same men who WILL use self ID as an opportunity to get into places (showers, changing rooms, hospital wards etc etc) where women are vulnerable.

That's nice that you're on the policy advisory board and that your local police think everything is fine. Doesn't mean that no problem exists though, or even that it doesn't exist where you are and just hasn't come to the attention of police though.

One way to avoid men who're with the wife and kids flashing random women is to maintain changing rooms that are segregated by sex.

@ChampiontheWonderHamster Off topic, but MY EYES!!! You just misquoted The Princess Bride.... arrggh... literal violence!!!

I know I spotted it a second after posting. Abject apologies

have never actually seen the film but recognise the quote

The only reason one needs a psychiatrist to understand concerns is if they're the result of some mental disorder.

mirandayardley.com/en/what-autogynephilia-is-and-what-is-it-not-a-brief-note/

It's extremely unlikely that a trans person would want to be naked in such a situation due to their gender dysphoria.

You are aware aren't you, Nat, that in your attempts to be inclusive, you are actually being incredibly transphobic?

In the current order of things, it's transphobic to mention gender dysphoria because not everyone who wishes to present/self id as a woman has, or even claims to have it?

And they get mightily pissed off with people who talk about it.

I've just had an awful thought (that I should have had sooner, but it's been a busy few days...)

IDK if things are the same as 25 years ago when my best friend was a pretty good swimmer, but when she competed in county / district level swimming events if she won or was chosen at random, she had to provide a urine sample for testing. IIRC this was the case from U15 upwards (so reasonably young athletes). To do this, she had to be in a cubicle with an official when the sample was produced (to ensure that it was indeed her sample). Of course, back then they ensured that the official was the same sex as the athlete providing the sample. I wonder if this is still the case / will remain the case?

I suspect that other sports have similar drugs testing regimes from a young age, so this isn't a swimming specific thing, but given that Swim England seem to have taken a high dive into the Kool Aid and are swimming laps in it, how long before a teen girl is asked to provide a urine sample in front of Paris the official, who was David when he saw him at last year's competition and looks remarkably unchanged?

(I know this sounds a bit "won't anyone think of the children?!" scare mongering, but if Swim England have gone down the "transwomen are women and are entitled to be in any female space" route, then surely this is a logical conclusion?)

The probably want something called equality

I'm confused. What equal rights don't trans identifying people have?

Actually I have been flashed by a man in a changing rooms. He wasn't trans but there with his wife and kids. I've also been sexually assaulted by a man. He wasn't trans.

I'm intrigued , can you tell me how you can tell the difference between a non-predatory TIM, and a predatory male pretending to be a TIM?

I'm also intrigued that you think a TIM can't possibly have a wife and kids? You may want to pop over and have a look at the trans-widows threads...

suspect that other sports have similar drugs testing regimes from a young age, so this isn't a swimming specific thing

Not very sure what will be the point in drugs testing when TIMS are allowed to compete as women with a T level far higher than you would find in a woman...

That is definitely a question you should c and p to them Olenna. Because I am betting Mermaids whoever advised them here would be fine with Dave watching a fourteen year old girl pee.

Nat - what you are advocating for - what Swim England explicitly say in this guidance - is that we are supposed to educate our young daughters, pubescent and pre-pubescent, that they are wrong to be alarmed if an adult male dick appears in their space. This goes against everything we know about safeguarding children. EVERYTHING.

Swim England needs to stop listening to transactivist organisations and start paying attention to their statutory safeguarding responsibilities. It might help if they also familiarised themselves with the concept of sexual boundaries and the importance of a woman's consent.

How anyone cannot see that this represents increased risk for women and girls - NATALT notwithstanding - and is part of a creeping dismissing of the principle of consent is just utterly beyond me.

Nat - what you are advocating for - what Swim England explicitly say in this guidance - is that we are supposed to educate our young daughters, pubescent and pre-pubescent, that they are wrong to be alarmed if an adult male dick appears in their space. This goes against everything we know about safeguarding children. EVERYTHING.

Exactly. Training girls out of the idea that they should trust their instincts and raise the alarm if they feel unsafe is a terrible idea, and should be opposed by anyone who cares about the wellbeing of girls and women.

HOw qyickly this is avalanching - I’ve been following this issue for a year or so and in no way did I anticipate that irganisations will be jumpong the gun. Women shelters and now swimming pools. Next?

what you are advocating for - what Swim England explicitly say in this guidance - is that we are supposed to educate our young daughters, pubescent and pre-pubescent, that they are wrong to be alarmed if an adult male dick appears in their space. This goes against everything we know about safeguarding children. EVERYTHING.

And women are constantly told that we need to take responsibility for our own personal safety and not put ourselves in risky situations. Funny that.

HOw qyickly this is avalanching - I’ve been following this issue for a year or so and in no way did I anticipate that irganisations will be jumpong the gun. Women shelters and now swimming pools. Next?

I'm horrified but not surprised tbh. We predicted this would happen but we were told that we were overreacting and of course it wouldn't. Yet here we are.