'Engaging trans people in swimming' (aka penises are ok in the lady's changing rooms, but transmen must cover their breasts)

[pisacake]

www.swimming.org/library/documents/2857/download

"You may need to do some education work with other centre users who may be concerned when sharing a
space with a trans person, especially if a trans customer looks to have different physical characteristics to the
gender they are identifying with i.e. a male to female trans customer who has not had top or bottom surgery
may still look like a male to others, and conversely with female to male trans customers.
"

"You should adopt a zero tolerance policy on any transphobic
behaviour from staff or centre users.

1. Try to encourage your workforce to be aware of any potential

transphobia likely to happen before or after a session, both in or around the centre, and empower them to challenge transphobic language, attitudes and behaviours from other staff members, customers and the general public too."

"Some swimmers who were born female but now identify
differently may wear what is called a ‘binder’ – this is a
tight piece of material that is wrapped around the top half
of the body in order to compress breasts to conceal them
behind clothing. This is perfectly safe to swim in, and
should be encouraged."

"Some swimmers may have a preference to wear less
clothing than usually expected. For example, some
swimmers may not want to wear anything on their top half,
so as to identify with their new gender, but if they have
not had top surgery this means that this person’s breasts
will be clearly visible. This needs to be talked about and an
amicable solution found. This may be appropriate to allow
during a trans specific session, but if a trans swimmer is
attending any other session in the timetable, then they
should be appropriately covered up – you wouldn’t allow a
woman to swim topless in a public session, and you need
to treat everyone the same."

So basically trans-identified women must cover up, but trans-identified men can shower nude with women and the women needed to be 'educated' to understand this. And if anyone complains turf them out under the 'zero tolerance against transphobia' policy.

The Daily Mail put a "modesty strip" across Alex Bertie's pre-op boobs but not her post-op ones, so there isn't really a hard and fast rule on acceptable nipples. Because if Alex Bertie is a man, she has always been a man because she was always in the "wrong" body, so the nipples that the DM covered up were male nipples.

Still following?

How can we complain to Swim England and, if funded by government, to government?

How do we start a co-ordinated campaign? Do we need a new thread? (Does anyone want to start one? I am a feminist in training). Should we write to Margot James MP (in her capacity as Minister) on the issue of trans people in women's sport in general and not just on this topic? There have been a few threads about the issues and fairness eg Australian rules football(?) when a woman's leg was broken and weightlifting.

Yes, I suppose it is 'transphobic' because they are 'the same' as a man's chest.

Yes that's it. If they're "men" they should be allowed to follow the same rules as men, if TIMs are allowed to get their penises out in women's changing rooms because they're "women".

Ergo they know they aren't, but they know who's more likely to kick up a fuss about "transphobia". Hypocrisy.

MArgot james isn’t sports minister?

Only seen one or two people tweeting on this. @swimengland and @sportengland. Could also add DCMS.

No contact details for complaints seem to be available on the swim england page, but sport england is listed as a sponsor. Might be best to write to chief exec, via MPs if MPs are on board.

Ok I'm not generally a daily mail fan but that article is pretty good. They've managed to get a response from Swim England although it doesn't really say much

The Daily Mail article only has three comments. More might push it further up the page. Off to add one.

Margot James MP is the Minister of State and the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport.

Haha can’t believe emailing the Daily Mail worked!!

Bloody good article too 😀

It was surprisingly good for the Mail.

Maybe we will be seeing Kerry McDermott in the Times soon (that's where all the excellent gender critical journalists go Kerry)

The DM is pre-moderating comments (I can't believe that they have only received three - perhaps more will come over night once they have cleared them?)

So what about a pre-op TIM who identifies as a woman - do they have to cover their nipples or is it acceptable for them to wear Speedos/shorts? Perhaps they're gender-fluid & identify as a woman while changing but as a man once in the water. Who are we, the "cis-privileged", to confine them to one gender presentation for the duration of their visit?

@OlennasWimple

The Daily Mail put a "modesty strip" across Alex Bertie's pre-op boobs but not her post-op ones, so there isn't really a hard and fast rule on acceptable nipples.

It was Alex who put the modesty strip across her pre-op boobs, the Daily Mail just took the photo as they found it: twitter.com/Alex_Bertie/status/924686285616361473

As of this morning, there are still only 3 comments.

Given it is the DM, I can only imagine they are dealing with an absolute tirade of frothing at this, because there's no way their readership would keep quiet. I wonder if it'll make the print edition today?

I can't understand what all the fuss is about. Trans people have been able to legally use changing rooms in gyms, swimming pools, sailing clubs and other sports facilities since 2010 with the introduction of the Equality Act. Most leisure centres and clubs have sensible policies to accommodate the needs of trans and non trans participants alike. All that seems to have happened in this case is that the Governing Body for swimming has issued advice to encourage trans people to go swimming. When other sports did it there wasn't all this angst. I'm a dinghy sailor and yachtswoman and there wasn't this trouble when the RYA issued almost identical guidance in 2016. I read lots of posts saying that to access these facilities trans people should have gone through the GRC process and got a new birth certificate. Don't people realise that in order to get one as things stand that they have to demonstrate that they are living as a man or woman? How one earth can someone get any evidence of that if they can't actually take part in sports and activities?

Have you read the thread NatGrad59 ?

FFS the new gender ID regulations means that anyone can decide to change their gender just on a feeling and you won't be able to challenge them! None of this being assessed by a psychiatrist and having to live as a woman for 2 years...

Proposed changes to the law

The Transgender Equality Report1 made the following recommendations (among others):

Self-declaration. To make legal gender changes easier for trans-identifying people, the need for a medical diagnosis should be removed. Gender Recognition Certificates should be issued through a simple administrative process of self-declaration of gender identity. This would apply to adults and 16/17-year-olds.
The protected characteristic of “gender reassignment” in the Equality Act 2010 should be changed to “gender identity”.
No exclusion of trans people under any circumstances. A person with a Gender Recognition Certificate should never be excluded from a single-sex occupation or service for people of their acquired gender.
What does this mean in practice?

Currently, organisations offering single-sex services in sensitive situations may exclude people of the opposite birth sex if it is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.3 4 For example, a service for women who have experienced sexual assault could exclude a person who has transitioned to live as a woman from working as a therapist or accessing a women’s therapy group there.

Under the new recommendations, this would no longer be the case. A male person could legally change their gender to “woman” or “female” by self-declaration – no medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria or other assessment would be required, and they would not need to change anything about themselves, such as changing appearance or having medical treatment. This person would then be eligible to attend or work at the women-only therapy service in our example.1

For the PP looking for ways to take action: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2995738-Gender-ID-bill-Gender-Critical-To-Do-List

Don't people realise that in order to get one as things stand that they have to demonstrate that they are living as a man or woman?

Rubbish. Demonstrating that you are "living as a man or woman" is an exercise in paperwork. You send in documentation such as your driving licence that you've changed to be in your acquired gender; your passport that you've changed to be in your acquired gender; utility bills that show that the leccy company thinks you are of your acquired gender; your payslips that show you are employed as your acquired gender.

There are absolutely no behavioural requirements at all.

How about you read up any three trans threads of your choice in feminism chat NatGrad and when you've caught up you'll be clearer on what the fuss is about, and what the equality act says, and what the existing legal exemptions are and all that?

You're about to find out that most posters are intimately acquainted with the ins and outs of the law regarding transgender rights and women's rights and how they conflict. And you're mistaken on what you imagine are the requirements of transitioning.

Yes of course. Swim England's guidance is about encouraging participation under the current law, i.e. the Equality Act 2010. The facts are that most pools I use have unisex Village Changing. At the pool I use in Barnsley there are sex segregated changing rooms and unisex family changing rooms. In all the changing rooms there's a rule of keeping cossies on except in cubicles. Some of the women I swim with use the unisex changing rooms because the changing cubicles are bigger.

That's good NatGrady59

So what about all the women who currently change in single sex changing rooms?
And how do you feel about those self identifying women with autogynephilia (men with a sexual fetish for being seen as a woman) sharing changing rooms with teenagers and women?

It is also worth noting that the Equality Act allows for singe sex segregated spaces. It's just that trans pressure groups are running round schools and organisations telling them that this is not the case and they MUST allow all self identifying women into women's spaces.

An exercise in paperwork? Lol. Do you think a psychiatrist would be impressed with a utility bill? They want to see evidence that trans people are living 24/7 for 2 years in their affirmed gender. No breaks allowed. That means either having a job, undertaking train in or undertaking voluntary work in the affirmed gender. It means having a social life in the affirmed gender. It means taking part in sports and recreation in the affirmed gender.

An exercise in paperwork? Lol. Do you think a psychiatrist would be impressed with a utility bill? They want to see evidence that trans people are living 24/7 for 2 years in their affirmed gender. No breaks allowed. That means either having a job, undertaking train in or undertaking voluntary work in the affirmed gender. It means having a social life in the affirmed gender. It means taking part in sports and recreation in the affirmed gender.

It absolutely does not.

At present, you need a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria, confirmed by two doctors.

That is the first requirement.

The second, separate, requirement is that you demonstrate, via simple paperwork that you have been living as your acquired gender for two years. Here is the official wording from the government website:

Proof you’ve lived in your acquired gender

This proof must cover the required time that you’ve lived in your acquired gender. It should include original copies of your:

passport
driving licence
payslips or benefits documents
utility bills or other official documents

All documents should be in your acquired name and gender. The earliest document must be dated before the beginning of the required time.

www.gov.uk/apply-gender-recognition-certificate/documents-you-must-provide

There are absolutely no behavioural requirements at all.