Disgusted by all the transphobia here

[MikePeterson]

A very good friend of mine and a long time poster here has spent most of her day crying because this fresh wave of transphobia in a community she thought she was welcome in has finally broken her spirits. After obtaining her permission, I am posting this because it needs to be said.

She is a woman with a penis and has identified as such since she was old enough to understand the concept of gender. Being female is part of her identity but so is her body, such as it is and untouched by surgery and artificial hormones. She is a beautiful individual and, to my eye, presents a much more feminine image than, ironically, Linda Bellos and several of her fellow bigots.

Arguing that, because of potential past trauma involving males, causing seeing a penis or even an individual likely to be in possession of a penis to be triggering is justification for segregation is as absurd as it is offensive. Would it be acceptable for a woman who was the victim of a violent crime commuted by a particular ethnic minority to demand that all members of that race be segregated in changing rooms and domestic violence shelters? Of course not.

Equally ludicrous is the claim that transgender women somehow had the privilege of living as a man. Cisgendered women are light years ahead of transgender women in terms of privilege and if you wish to continue denying this, you are no better than the most vile male misogynists.

Finally, think about how disrespectful you are being to all women, you are reducing all the wonderful differences between the genders to what someone has between their legs. The same feminist ancestors who fought for your right to vote, to be regarded as more than domestic servants and baby machines would spit on you for your intolerance.

Oh Wham I’ve actually had a little cry, reading that. I have a 15yr old niece that started identifying as a boy, about a year ago. Unfortunately the whole family is going along with it, if not encouraging it. I knew her and her siblings from they were babies and her parents and brother are incredibly homophobic. You would be sick at some of the stuff they’ve come out with. My husband and I have believed for years that her oldest sister is a lesbian, for many reasons I won’t go into, and is afraid to come out. I actually think others suspect the same, but it’s never discussed. How sad is that? Surprise surprise, the 15yr old has autism, which is common amongst trans identifying people. I want to shake her and tell her she doesn’t have to go this way and at the same time I want to hug her and weep, because I know her mother will love the attention she gets, because of it.

I am actually really glad that regardless of what the naysayers say, mumsnet FWR is welcoming to trans people or their family members who are wanting, or needing support. Its been proven time and time again on here. Feminists really are not all nasty meanies. For me, its not really about individuals at all (well, my venom for that recetn Andi dude is absolutely about him as an individual) but about the entire ideology itself, and the demands of transactivists. Most people do realise that transsexual people, those with dysphoria, are completely different to these 'transgender unicorn with female penis' types who reckon if you do not bend your own reality sufficiently then you are literally murdering them.

Most people have empathy for those with dysphoria and genuinely wish them all the luck in the world in navigating their lives. But empathy sharp runs out when faced with a male person claiming he has a lady penis and saying that lesbians should worship it or be branded bigots.

Yes hipster we do talk about feminist issues and gender stereotyping in a roundabout fashion and I hope this will suffice for now and be enough for him to develop critical thought in the face of future information he might find about trans issues.

We don't live in a very 'hip' or 'woke' area though. It's very working class with a smattering of slightly middle class enclaves and I've never seen transgender anything mentioned at any school, local press or community online groups.

That's not to say there aren't people with gender dysphoria in our area and I'm aware of a handful of much older, old school transsexuals but trans trending doesn't appear to be a thing (yet).

Great news Wham :)

I havs two GNC children, who are perfectly fab just as they are. I would never talk to children about transgender issues.

I have explained to my kids that no one can change biological sex. You only have one body and you have to look after it, the best you can.

That gender is a made up set of rules that try and stop people from being themselves. If anyone starts a instruction with you can't because you are a boy/girl, then it is probably an idiotic gender rule and should be ignored.

But toilets and changing rooms are divided on biological sex and that is fine and sensible.

I really hope this trans bubble bursts and we move onto the next big phrase for kids soon.

Of course genuine cases like Wham's child will always need support but hopefully the number of kids with gender issues could drop to 2010 levels !

I would never talk to children about transgender issues

I went there. A child in DDs class asked the teacher whether a boy can become a girl, and I wanted, as Ova said, to get in front of it.

We’d recently read ‘Where Did I Begin?’ so I just gave a basic explanation of the biological and, um, psychosocial aspects and said that, yes, some people do alter their bodies, but that may or may not be the best approach.

DD doesn’t seem to have any gender identity issues though, so it felt safe to go that way.

How Did I Begin?, sorry.

Would it be acceptable for a woman who was the victim of a violent crime commuted by a particular ethnic minority to demand that all members of that race be segregated in changing rooms and domestic violence shelters? Of course not.
If your analogy is to hold any water at all it would be a demand that half of the ethnic minority be segregated. Which they are! Fancy that!

When Feminists agitated for a sex segregated public loo in London, so that the need to urinate did not put them at risk or keep them confined to the home, angry men burned it to the ground.

I'm only half way through the thread and noted the OP has gone!

Just wanted to say...

@TheRollingCrone brilliant poem, I've shared it elsewhere on Mumsnet.

@HouseOfGoldandBones "Or, have I entirely misunderstood?"

I think you've kind of understood.

"... it is my understanding that "female" relates to gender" No female relates to bioological sex. It is a scientific, biological fact.

Gender is a social construct built around expectations of what will go with that sex. It is often viewed as being part of the strucure that continues to oppress women.

This may help. snowflakeespecial.tumblr.com/post/114684943185/social-construct-masterpost

OP I am sorry your friend was upset I really am. However, the people to blame are those who are telling vunerable trans women (and trans men) that there is no difference between them and people born the oppiste sex to them, IMHO.

I've not managed all the pages but have to say...

@Whambarsarentasfizzyastheywere I am so glad your child doesn't want to transition.

My dear best friend has a dd who seems to be going through a lot of issues around gender, I am not sure I can work it out! I think the issue for my friend's dd, and for various young other young females in my extended family and circle of friends, is there is just so much out there on the Internet!

Things about binders and being trans or gender fluid or whatever.

Well done for being there for your child. I am sure it is incredibly hard.

I’m worried that there is a generation of little girls and boys now who are gay. They just are, it’s how you are born, it’s a fact.

So now there are people who will decide that a gay child is in fact ‘born in the wrong body’. Maybe she wanted to wear ‘boys clothes’ loathed dollies and had all male pals. She might even have had a boys name persona. She might have complained wholeheartedly about having to wear a skirt - ever - and got her mum to buy her clothes from the boys department of C&A. Maybe all she wanted for Christmas is a robot and a chopper bike. She had her hair cut short.

And some people would have decided (perhaps persuaded her) that she actually was a boy. Drugs, ops, psychologists... scary stuff eh?

No. She is now a happily gay woman and even wears dresses and makeup these days.

Ditto to Fekko's thoughts. This is why I can't believe so many LGB folk are on board with this, I think some are projecting their own experience of discrimination and fear of rejection on to the T, rather than seeing how open to abuse the message is.

Andi Dier's (and others) comments which compare what (?) is happening to Trans people today is akin to the AIDS crisis, are ludicrous and hugely offensive.

Whambarsarentasfizzyastheywere

Wow that was amazing to read, i really admire your strength
The things we can do for our children eh?

Thanks again for your kind messages.

PositivelyPERF it is so difficult to get the balance between being supportive and encouraging. I really hope your niece sees that you are neutral and that she is able to talk to you.

When this started with my child, and pretty much all the way through this I have focussed on remaining supportive to my child but also discussing all the negative aspects at length. I have also showed videos of the operations, lots of you tube footage of people regretting their choice to transition also. I wanted my child to know it wasn't going to be a magically pain and problem free transition. For years my child held firm that this was the path for them, despite all of the negative things we looked at, but thankfully things are getting so much better.

That said, had my child remained firm that they wanted to go down the path to transition I would have been fully supportive and there for every injection and appointment and operation too.

I just think that so many children would never start the process if there was better mental health help.

As I said upthread I have got myself into quite severe financial difficulty through this process to the point that my landlord is taking me to court and I may well become homeless. I still cant say I regret it due to where we are now with regard to my childs mental health but I can absolutely understand why parents get swept along in this. In a lot of ways it would have been so much easier to put my child onto blockers and think about the consequences later. I always had the future in mind, but I have sat up so many nights and cried my heart out because my child was in so much pain and I was the one stopping the medication that may make things so much better right away.

I have every sympathy for families struggling through this, but we need to campaign for better rights, more mental health help, facilities that actually cater for transgender people and the very particular struggles that they go through and not just take a 'That will do because it's already there' approach.

We had some counselling through women's aid and they were as good as they possibly could have been through it, but they just weren't equipped to deal with my childs very particular needs. We have been through so much during this whole process that I feel qualified to comment as a feminist and as the mother of a gender dysphoric child. We don't need to latch onto anyone else's spaces, we need spaces of our own.

So sorry to hear of your financial difficulties.
One of my dc absolutely needed therapy and needed it immediately, so I didn't think twice about going private but it's such a cost. And then the stress...

If there's anything anyone can do to support, you know where we are x

more mental health help

This is so fucking important. Trasacitivists fight to remove this, when its clearly the most important part of any treatment. I mean, even if someone decided to transition medically, they would still need a lot of therapy to deal with it. Yet therapy is apparently gatekeeping and exactly the same as gay conversion therapy so Very Bad.

Except its nothing like gay conversion therapy at all. Gay conversion therapy was trying to turn something into something they are not. Obviously that would not work. Therapy for trans issues however, is trying to get someone to accept what they are. Very very different.

I really am glad your child is in a better place now Whambars. Truly. It must be so scary as a oarent to go through this, especially with no help and basically everything working against you. A friend of mine has a daughter who says they are trans. She is only 11 and she was recommeded to see mermaids as apparently they will support her whatever she choses to do I showded her a lot of stuff about mermaids and told her it was a pressure group and that there had even been court involvement to tell them to stay away from one child. She luckily did not see them. Poor kid would have been on blockers immediately or hormones off the internet as they recommend. The only reason her child is trans is stereotypes. There is no body dysphoria at all. Just she prefers 'boys stuff' and hangs out with boys. How on earth does that make someone trans..its madness.

Gay conversion therapy was trying to turn someone into something they are not. Obviously. I do not think gay people are things

Considering that most oppression of women is due to their biology I struggle to see the notion of “cis privilege” as anything other than total bollocks

What I find really telling is that trans activists do not even recognize that not identifying with gender stereotypically feminine stuff is a pretty ordinary aspect of lots of women's girlhoods. They are utterly failing to understand that so many of the vocal middle aged women who are yelling 'hold your horses' are doing so because they understand fully that gender roles are utter bollocks. That it entirely normal to not want to wear dresses, to want short hair, and to feel very strongly against heels and make up. They are pathologising perfectly normal personality traits.

It is absolutely fine to eschew the feminine. It makes you no less of a woman.

The problem is, women know that, but men are struggling to believe that eschewing masculinity is normal in a man. And are absolutely pathologising any deviation from stupid gender stereotypes.

All the GRC process does is cement this shit. I'm actually at a loss how much worse self-ID will make this.

What the fuck happened to mean we are seriously considering legislating on moving and changeable stereotypes and not biology?

Eek, I will just dip my toe in as a man, with a fully trans supportive pansexual adult DD. I haven't read whole thread, but it's really, really simple .... if you have a penis between your legs you're a man.

I shall now take my toe out and leave, but @TheGoalIsToStayOutOfTheHole - you make great posts, have noticed quite a few on various threads :) Oh and great post @mamaryllis .

Why thank you SteX. I have just recently namechanged back to this after the daily mail put one of my comments on one of their stories. Got a bit paranoid

Wham - I think I have read your previous posts. You have done a marvellous job.

We need to change the conversation to "protecting and celebrating gender non-conforming kids".

I am sure this is true:
I have so much sympathy for parents like me who do start on blockers because it's so fucking hard to see your child in pain every day then have support groups pressuring you too.

....also schools, well-meaning liberal types. I get so upset talking about my trans DD (19) and I am sure half of my friends think it's because I am struggling to accept her as trans; very few appreciate what a f*ck up this is which can only end in a very damaged person, somewhere along the line. She is on the waiting list for the adult gender services, but there is no therapy in the meantime, just affirmation from every direction.

There was a response to a Times report on the Tavistock from a very distressed mother whose child was on Puberty Blockers who was then just left unsupported - no therapy, counselling for over a year - since the local CAMHS have no resources. No wonder 100% go on to transition.

Ova - just in case you didn't know - I wanted to alert you about social media as your child goes into teenagehood. Trans ideology is everywhere - in the most innocent sounding places, not just Tumblr and Reddit. Fandoms (groups of kids with shared interests) - for example: Hamilton the musical; Homestuck; Fall out Boy - everywhere. If you can, I would be extremely cautious, paranoid, even.

Whambarsarentasfizzyastheywere

It's a disgraceful state of affairs when instead of putting your child on lifelong medication, resulting in permanent sterility, and affirming something you absolutely don't believe in, that has little basis in reality, you have had had to spend money that has now left you (and your child) in penury.

Even in terms of simple economics, you have saved the NHS thousands and thousands of pounds.

And, from what you say, the clincher, for your child to even begin questioning, was private therapy.

How are we in the position where parents are having to face impoverishment to stop this juggernaut that is coming for our children, from every angle?

I know you have been through a quite devastating time.

And I realise, that, although heading in the right direction, it's not over yet.

When (and I'm sure it is when, not if), you both are through this, would you feel capable of sharing your experience?

Changing enough details to keep anonymous?

There are many groups would welcome a one-off blog. To help others.

Your story is so important. It's the real-life translation of what is being marketed as progressive inclusivity.

I'm so angry, on your behalf.

How this issue has cross-party support is utterly beyond me.

Someone, with a fucking backbone, needs to take ownership.

The memorandum of understanding that asserts healthcare professionals have to choose affirmation as the first treatment should be ditched immediately. How was it ever ratified?

And why? Usually these things are driven by money, but that doesn't make sense.

for you and your child. Thank you, so much, for updating us.

And to the OP.

I'm sure it wasn't your intention, but your opening post now looks like a plan of self-indulgent wank.

*pile