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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Disgusted by all the transphobia here

1000 replies

MikePeterson · 04/02/2018 16:12

A very good friend of mine and a long time poster here has spent most of her day crying because this fresh wave of transphobia in a community she thought she was welcome in has finally broken her spirits. After obtaining her permission, I am posting this because it needs to be said.

She is a woman with a penis and has identified as such since she was old enough to understand the concept of gender. Being female is part of her identity but so is her body, such as it is and untouched by surgery and artificial hormones. She is a beautiful individual and, to my eye, presents a much more feminine image than, ironically, Linda Bellos and several of her fellow bigots.

Arguing that, because of potential past trauma involving males, causing seeing a penis or even an individual likely to be in possession of a penis to be triggering is justification for segregation is as absurd as it is offensive. Would it be acceptable for a woman who was the victim of a violent crime commuted by a particular ethnic minority to demand that all members of that race be segregated in changing rooms and domestic violence shelters? Of course not.

Equally ludicrous is the claim that transgender women somehow had the privilege of living as a man. Cisgendered women are light years ahead of transgender women in terms of privilege and if you wish to continue denying this, you are no better than the most vile male misogynists.

Finally, think about how disrespectful you are being to all women, you are reducing all the wonderful differences between the genders to what someone has between their legs. The same feminist ancestors who fought for your right to vote, to be regarded as more than domestic servants and baby machines would spit on you for your intolerance.

OP posts:
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ChardonnaysPrettySister · 05/02/2018 20:03

I respectfully disagree. Open discussion should always be encouraged, even if it's rarely successful in this topic.

Proper discussion, yes.

But Mike just sprouted a few clicheed soundbites, didn't answer any questions, told us all off and flounced.
Wasn't much of a discussion material there.

ImMissHannigan · 05/02/2018 20:08

Massive respect for the posters on here. What a highly intelligent, articulate and impressive group of ladies you all are! You have all (too many to mention) save for a small number, put into words my thoughts and fears with the current trans focus. I couldn't put it better so I won't try. Oh and you are also very funny whilst doing it! Thank you!

Fekko · 05/02/2018 20:10

😒

Frequency · 05/02/2018 20:16

Me too, TERF.

As I said, I have trans people in my inner circle. My daughter is dating a trans-man. He, and I am more than happy to refer to him as he, is a lovely, sweet young man who treats my daughter well. The thought of him experiencing bullying, violence or prejudice because of how he chooses to live horrifies me.

However DD identifies as bi. They both recognize that DD is not straight and if she were, she would be unlikely to be attracted to a pre-op trans-man. He has a vagina, he is biologically female and accepts that.

I am more than happy to include trans women in most women's spaces. I am happy to shop with them, use their chosen names and pronouns but they have to accept that they are fundamentally different to biological women and there are some spaces they cannot be allowed in order to protect biological women. Prisons, for example and women's refuges because like it or not pre-op, they are male bodied and pose a potential threat to women. That's not to say I believe all or even most of them would be violent to women but some are. It's the same as men, most men, if they found themselves in a women's prison, would not rape the female prisoners but some would and for this reason, people with intact penis' should not be housed with vulnerable women.

And the trans community needs to step away from people like Andi Dier. They are doing their cause no favours by standing behind a person who appears to believe that violence against women does not happen, despite having perpetrated some of that violence themselves.

PencilsInSpace · 05/02/2018 20:17

Just catching up but I am crying at this -

I suspect the 'M' and 'E' keys are worn down from overuse into translucent plastic slivers, set atop tiny white key pegs like contact lenses perched on baby teeth, like a monument to a toddler's precocious vanity.

Grin
TheCatsPaws · 05/02/2018 20:27

Frequency that’s an excellent post and sums up how I feel too.

TheFallenMadonna · 05/02/2018 20:27

Frequency, I think that is a great post.

OlennasWimple · 05/02/2018 20:32

Great post Frequency

Tinycitrus · 05/02/2018 20:35

Yes frequency

htdef · 05/02/2018 20:36

Urgh, I'm FTM, that means I am a female person with gender dysphoria, it's just a fact. We don't need to pretend anything else, in fact I think it is very unhealthy to do so, I'm sorry your friend is suffering but pretending that you can actually change your gender is not helpful to anyone.

I think your comments re Linda Bellos reveal how you really view womanhood

KizzyBear · 05/02/2018 20:39

Why is it men that say transwomen are women?
Why are you always passing the buck to us?
Why is it us that has to deal with it and live in peace and harmony with penis in our spaces?
Why can't you except them into yours?
If we have to why can't you? They feel unsafe in your spaces maybe it's men that have these issues to resolve.

TERFousBreakdown · 05/02/2018 20:39

I think your comments re Linda Bellos reveal how you really view womanhood

^^ This, times infinity!!!

'Femininity' doesn't a woman make. Unlike biology, 'femininity' is actually socially constructed.

Terftastic · 05/02/2018 20:40

As I said, I have trans people in my inner circle. My daughter is dating a trans-man. He, and I am more than happy to refer to him as he, is a lovely, sweet young man who treats my daughter well. The thought of him experiencing bullying, violence or prejudice because of how he chooses to live horrifies me.

Yes, I can see that and understand. I hate to think of any individual suffering bullying or anything like that for who they are.

Honestly - I think all the people who are called TERFs genuinely feel that way - there may be some exceptions of course. I really do believe that the 'TERFs' are no such thing - they are not exclusionary in any other aspect of life - some of the women ejected from the Labour Party for "transphobia" have been fighting for equality for 30yrs. They have just been quick on the uptake that this is now a threat to women.

It's precisely because the trans rights cause has been hijacked by MRAs and misogynists, who would erase our rights that have been fought for over a century, (and care little for transmen, like your dd's bf) that radical feminists (or "women") are now saying "hang on a minute..."

SimonBridges · 05/02/2018 20:40

A woman is whoever the hell she says she is, and she is most certainly not restricted to any definition that begins and ends with her capacity to bear a child.

Ah now. I cannot bear children. Yet I can guarantee you that every person I have ever met will say I am female.

PositivelyPERF · 05/02/2018 20:47

We’re in the same club, no pun intended, Simon. Like you, I’m still a 100% female/woman and that’s why I’ve had to put up with abuse, bullying and patronising from men. They’re still doing it, but now wearing dresses at the same time.

HairyBallTheorem · 05/02/2018 20:51

Thank you htdef for saying that. Most of the trans people I've met say the same. I absolutely support your right to live and present however you want, free from violence, harassment, any threat to your livelihood. And I know that genuinely dysphoric transpeople don't pose a threat. It's the cross-dressing fetishists (who are not dysphoric in the slightest - they tend to be male and very, very fond of their penises indeed) who are causing the trouble.

I hate the way transactivism is screwing you over as well as women.

SophoclesTheFox · 05/02/2018 20:56

What hairyball said. I am very sorry that you are also being chucked under the bus, htdef. None of this is fair, and you being caught in the backlash is horrible.

I can't have children either, simon and PERF. I'm sure I'll be getting my 16% pay rise and the ability to pee standing up any time now. That's how it works, isn't it? No uterus=man.

hipsterfun · 05/02/2018 21:01

Or any of those other people who pop up on the TV and radio to debunk stuff or sneer at astrologers all the time. Why are they completely silent on this issue??

Astrologers don’t have form for making violent threats towards those who disagree with them, so no great risk involved there.

Fekko · 05/02/2018 21:04

Where I work it’s not all that unusual to see men walking along in a skirt with sparkly/pink trainers and a wig.

They do tend to be older men - I’d say 50s upwards - and generally they are just going about their business, not looking all that relaxed but a bit sad tbh, but I’ve not seen any harassment (the odd stare and double take - but hey, women get gawped at anyway). This is during the day though.

The closer you get to soho/Leicester sq though, and I’m seeing/hearing more younger men dressed like blooming Carmen Miranda on a hen night and I have no idea if they think they are men, women or wombats. Much different personality - more in your face and trying to make eye contact (to have a fight maybe?).

My gym has a couple of men wearing women’s gym kit who use the facilities. They wear Lycra so it’s not hard to see that they have their men bits. I haven’t met either in the changing rooms but I have seen them having spats with other (female) gym users - and no, not about their gender or sex but the type of ‘I saw the machine first, bugger off’ and ‘no I won’t get out of the dance studio where the class is about because I’m doing my hair in the mirror’.

Maybe it’s a generation thing - being more aggressive and ‘in your face’. I don’t remember the transvestites from my clubbing days demanding that they were women or being so angry. Maybe that’s why - they knew what they were and were comfortable with it.

gingergenius · 05/02/2018 21:07

Sorry. Women don't have penises.

LangCleg · 05/02/2018 21:08

It's the cross-dressing fetishists (who are not dysphoric in the slightest - they tend to be male and very, very fond of their penises indeed) who are causing the trouble.

It is. And the underlying cause of all the trouble is the push for self-ID, which is what everyone here is against. Not against dysphoric trans folk at all.

And the problem is that this fetishistic cross-dressing correlates with both domestic abuse (as the trans widow thread here illustrates) and with sex offending (it's the most common paraphilia among sex offenders as the 50% of TIMs in prison being sex offenders stat illustrates).

This means that self-ID extends the trans population to include a set of males with a greater likelihood to be abusive towards women than that of all males taken together.

This is catastrophic not just for women, but also for dysphoric trans people. The backlash will come. And it will be horrendous.

We need to bin self-ID, go back to gatekeeping to safeguard women and children, and then proceed to fight for social acceptance for dysphoric trans people.

Terftastic · 05/02/2018 21:17

I agree Lang.

It is catastrophic, because again - violent males would be exercising their control over us.

We have to fight it, and if it means voting Tory (which I honestly think is the best bet - considering the only MPs who have come out against this are tories, and given the state of the labour party right now), I will do that. But it'll break my heart.

PositivelyPERF · 05/02/2018 21:24

If self id comes in, TIFs are going to suffer too. They will have NO safe place to get away from violent men and perverts.

LindySprint · 05/02/2018 21:33

Maria Miller (MP, Con) is up to her neck in this mess. And was allowed to be.

UpstartCrow · 05/02/2018 21:39

gingergenius
Sorry. Women don't have penises.

No other species has to deny reality to appease aggressive males.

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