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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Disgusted by all the transphobia here

1000 replies

MikePeterson · 04/02/2018 16:12

A very good friend of mine and a long time poster here has spent most of her day crying because this fresh wave of transphobia in a community she thought she was welcome in has finally broken her spirits. After obtaining her permission, I am posting this because it needs to be said.

She is a woman with a penis and has identified as such since she was old enough to understand the concept of gender. Being female is part of her identity but so is her body, such as it is and untouched by surgery and artificial hormones. She is a beautiful individual and, to my eye, presents a much more feminine image than, ironically, Linda Bellos and several of her fellow bigots.

Arguing that, because of potential past trauma involving males, causing seeing a penis or even an individual likely to be in possession of a penis to be triggering is justification for segregation is as absurd as it is offensive. Would it be acceptable for a woman who was the victim of a violent crime commuted by a particular ethnic minority to demand that all members of that race be segregated in changing rooms and domestic violence shelters? Of course not.

Equally ludicrous is the claim that transgender women somehow had the privilege of living as a man. Cisgendered women are light years ahead of transgender women in terms of privilege and if you wish to continue denying this, you are no better than the most vile male misogynists.

Finally, think about how disrespectful you are being to all women, you are reducing all the wonderful differences between the genders to what someone has between their legs. The same feminist ancestors who fought for your right to vote, to be regarded as more than domestic servants and baby machines would spit on you for your intolerance.

OP posts:
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Ereshkigal · 05/02/2018 14:29

Blindly following a dogma with zero scientific basis, and ignoring peoples concerns, is ironically the opposite of open minded.

YY, and that is transactivists and their allies in a nutshell. Luner demonstrates it quite well.

TheCatsPaws · 05/02/2018 14:31

A woman is whoever the hell she says she is

So can I say I’m not a woman and suddenly, sexism will go away?

Terftastic · 05/02/2018 14:33

It's not that our minds our shut Lunar, it is that the scales have fallen from our eyes.

MN is generally seen as a left-wing site - I would say most of here are pretty left-leaning, and inclusive.

Most of us have spent a lifetime being pro-LBGT rights.

Ask yourself what has made us question this now - why we want to question the fallacy that women can have penises - and then ask yourself why we want to talk about self ID and the GRA.

LanaKanesTerfyVagina · 05/02/2018 14:33

Oh if only I'd realised sooner that I could simply identify my way out of my biology based oppresion.

"No Mr Rapist....you can't rape me today because I am identifying as a man"

It's oh so simple. Hmm

mamaryllis · 05/02/2018 14:33

‘Open to science, facts, and truth’
Or not, as is proven.

KimchiLaLa · 05/02/2018 14:33

Thank fuck we have a man coming on here to tell us where we are all going wrong

This

OvaHere · 05/02/2018 14:34

So can I say I’m not a woman and suddenly, sexism will go away?

It's the perfect contraceptive too. Worried about getting pregnant? Pregnant and don't want to be? Just say to yourself I am a man and it will all go away.

WiggyPig · 05/02/2018 14:35

There are answers Luner but they tend towards the spiritual, which MN doesn't in general (see multiple mentions of sky fairies / sky pixies on any religion thread).

A woman is a woman if she "truly believes it in her heart" (as per the OP) relies - at best - on a belief in a female soul of some sort which is being housed in a male body.

A woman is a woman because she has a "female brain" is another one that pops up - relies on the concept of there being a ladybrain which is historically problematic, not to mention disproved.

The most convincing one I've found was Julia Serano's idea of "subconscious sex" but that too relies to an extent on belief in a soul (though she doesn't call it that) and also speaks only to those who are dysphoric, which discounts what is now the majority of the trans community.

I used to be very much persuaded by the Serano view but I'm now equally persuaded towards a gender critical analysis. Which is kind of the opposite of being closed minded really. I'd change my mind again if I saw persuasive or logical arguments.

DodoPatrol · 05/02/2018 14:40

Which is why I don't post to change anyone's mind, not when they are all so firmly shut
ALuner, I think you're doing your best to be openminded, but honestly? Most people here, barring a few very experienced and cynical feminists, seem to have started from a position of slightly bemused tolerance.

The more you start to look at the current, actual, loopy demands, the harder it is to get back to that position of shoulder-shrugging tolerance.

Do people go the other way? Do they start by thinking 'no man is a woman!' and gradually come to realise that some men, despite their bodies and history and chromosomes, are in fact women? If so, what's the thought process? Because I literally cannot understand it, cannot make any sense of it, and god knows I've tried, in the spirit of tolerance and diversity (and not daily enraging my teenagers and their 'woke' friends).

It took me a while to move from 'I probably don't understand this because I'm not trans' to 'I don't understand this because, actually, it's mostly bollocks', but I can't find anything that starts to shift my view back the other way.

DickTERFin · 05/02/2018 14:43

Having a mind so open that your brain falls out, is not something to aspire to imo.

I will gladly listen to reasoned argument, but I'm going to have to take a pass on illogical, factually incorrect, derailing, gaslighting, emotional woo woo that is presented by TRA's.

LanaKanesTerfyVagina · 05/02/2018 14:44

Do people go the other way? Do they start by thinking 'no man is a woman!' and gradually come to realise that some men, despite their bodies and history and chromosomes, are in fact women? If so, what's the thought process? Because I literally cannot understand it, cannot make any sense of it, and god knows I've tried, in the spirit of tolerance and diversity

Great paragraph.

Frequency · 05/02/2018 14:45

I think picking on individuals this way and the assertion that trans women can never be real women is, although biologically correct, conflating the real issues and why people like myself tend to shy away from the debate. That also doesn't sit well with me. It's bit ick.

I don't really care what pronouns people use, or what clothes they wear or whether they think they feel like a woman. It doesn't hurt me, it doesn't hurt my daughters. What I do care about is survivors being heckled and abused my sexual predators while speaking about their abuse. I care that women's issues are being belittled because 'what about trans people'. I care that men are fighting for other men to be allowed into women's prisons because they put a dress on and called themselves Mary after being arrested.

I have trans people in my family, I want them to be heard, I want them to be protected and supported and to walk the streets without fear of violence and I don't want them represented by Andi Dier and his supporters. The trans rights movement is becoming increasingly aggressive, misogynistic and, well, male. It's frightening and it's doing genuine trans people no favours at all.

DodoPatrol · 05/02/2018 14:46

I was reading about some of the history of the term 'gender'. It really hasn't been around in its two parallel current senses for very long. I blame the fifties/sixties for thinking that 'inner identity' and 'society-prescribed sex role' needed to be described by the same word.

Otherwise, TIMs could all be merrily identifying away as 'toudleblogs' or something, rather than as 'women' (which is pretty much the ONLY human role they can never experience), and we could all go home happy.

YourVagesty · 05/02/2018 14:46

amazing how relevant Rachel Dolezal has become to this debate.

Either she's black or people with penises are men. One or the other.

SuperLoudPoppingAction · 05/02/2018 14:47
LanaKane you reminded me of this sketch.

There was a poster who used to say, on victim-blaming threads, that women could avoid eg mini skirts or strappy tops but they couldn't avoid rape unless they could successfuly disguise themselves as eg a fiat panda.

Collidascope · 05/02/2018 14:47

"A woman is a woman if she "truly believes it in her heart" (as per the OP) relies - at best - on a belief in a female soul of some sort which is being housed in a male body."

Yes, and to add to this, to accept this statement, we have to accept that people are self-aware, and actually a lot aren't. I've lost count of the number of nasty people who claimed they had 'a heart of gold', thin people who genuinely think they are fat, stupid people who think they're clever, nice people who think they're a waste of space, etc. No one is obliged to accept someone else's opinion of themself.

HashtagTired · 05/02/2018 14:47

...

Disgusted by all the transphobia here
DodoPatrol · 05/02/2018 14:49

Coming after your post, Frequency, mine is insensitive - blame my slow typing.

WhereYouLeftIt · 05/02/2018 14:52

From the OP : " Being female is part of her identity but so is her body, such as it is and untouched by surgery and artificial hormones. "

Oh FFS. A bloke. Who is intact in both genetalia and testosterone level.

What an absolute crock of shit.

Geronimoleapinglizards · 05/02/2018 14:56

Which is why I don't post to change anyone's mind, not when they are all so firmly shut.

To my mind it's not about having a closed mind. It's a case of the emperor's new clothes. Once you've realised he's naked, there's no convincing yourself otherwise. It's completely impossible because you'd have to lie or pretend to say he's wearing clothes. Why should I have to?

I grew up as a Christian. My faith brought a lot of positive things to my life. I then read some Richard Dawkins, among other things, and had the crashing realisation that the Judaeo-Christian god couldn't possibly exist. No matter how much I miss some aspects of my faith, that's it, it's impossible to believe again. I don't wish other Christians ill but what they believe is illogical, I'm afraid, however nice or well-meaning individual are. And there's that saying isn't there, how religions are like penises. It's fine if you have one, it's fine if you're proud of it, just don't go waving it around in my face. The trans thing is similar. Wear a dress if that floats your boat. I won't object. Force your way into female spaces and nope, not having it. I'm not being mean by saying that.

LanaKanesTerfyVagina · 05/02/2018 14:56

SuperLoud
I laughed at that so hard I nearly pissed myself.
Grin Grin

Thank you for sharing that!

I can't believe I've never seen it before.

God yeah....if only we could just leave the damn things at home.

Cantusethatname · 05/02/2018 14:59

I think I look young today and I feel quite youthful.
In fact I am 22 and please don't contradict me.

misscockerspaniel · 05/02/2018 15:00

I agree that it would risk our safety wearing t-shirts emblazoned with the excellent "Mother Nature - the ultimate transphobe" .... but I think we could safely wear one with the slogan "I believe in Mother Nature" Smile

Geronimoleapinglizards · 05/02/2018 15:04

Actually, speaking of Dawkins, one of the things I've found fascinating is that one if the really dominant conversations in society ten to fifteen years ago was led by Dawkins and it was all about critical thinking, and how beliefs and feelings aren't reliable and that science is everything.

It felt like there was a lot of momentum behind it and society underwent quite a change. There was a lot of ridicule online towards religious people who tried to argue their case. It must have hurt a lot of feelings but it was also really exciting and invigorating because it made people challenge their thoughts and their beliefs.

How in such a short space of time have we flipped to suddenly having this very vocal group of men demanding their their inner feelings take priority over everything and trying to push objective reality aside. I couldn't have predicted it in a million years. I thought we were entering this wonderfully objective age where critical thinking was king.

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 05/02/2018 15:05

Ha ha, that's brilliant. Thanks Super

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