Women’s Aid considers employing self-declared transwomen [i.e. men] in women's shelters

[cromeyellow0]

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/womens-refuges-may-get-transgender-staff-3txhcr8mb

The review of women’s refuges, which is not dependent on any government reform, was agreed last week by the board of the charity Women’s Aid, a federation that oversees more than 300 shelters.

Mary Mason, the board’s interim co-chairwoman, said: “We have agreed to start a review of our whole transgender policy, including the possibility of employment for self-declared transgender women without a gender recognition certificate.”

Describing it as “an extraordinarily difficult discussion,” Mason said the review, by Women’s Aid’s director of services, Nicki Norman, would take three to four months. Another board member, Sarah Forster, confirmed the move.

Where did the impetus come from? It shows yet another institution "getting ahead of the law", as a Labour MP would phrase it.

Also, there is a talk in Edinburgh on 14th Feb

www.eventbrite.co.uk/d/united-kingdom--glasgow/womans-place-edinburgh/?q=womans+place+edinburgh&mode=search

Please also complete the Scottish Government consultation - details on this thread

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3161638-To-call-to-all-You-have-less-than-a-month-Please-act-now-to-protect-womens-rights?watched=1&msgid=75436470#75436470

Stupid question , how does it stand with women who define themselves as men, getting a job with male abuse services?
It is known that man can be abused by their girlfriends and wives. I know it's not widely heard about but unfortunately does happen.
Does this boil down to the fact they are penisless? If that's a word. And the world is meant to bow down to men?

The thing about self-defined makes (aka females) is that they are categorically not a threat to men. They are not the ones committing 98% of all sexual crimes or 80% of all violent crimes. It's males doing this, hence the need for female-only spaces. The crime rates among Transpeople are the same rates as their biological sex, not their identity.

A transman in a male space is as vulnerable as a female, ie. Weaker, smaller than males and the one who will fall pregnant and really needs the same protections as females.

I don't think male refuges are male only either (unless I'm wrong) I would have thought they employ females? So male or female, or in the middle, in a male environment wouldn't make too much difference if males and females are already there.

Self defined makes? = males

Also a petition here to sign:

www.citizengo.org/en-gb/pc/156132-keep-men-out-womens-shelters?tc=tw&tcid=45190691

Is it possible to sign that petition without your name being published?

Yes I think there are various options. I often misspell mine as it's very recognisable.

This is absolute insanity!

So many refuges reject boys 13 or over due to the triggering effect they may have on residents but male bodied people may now be allowed to work in one?

It makes a mockery of every woman who has had to make the agonising decision to leave one child behind in order to protect the others.

I wonder how many of the 138 women who were murdered last year were women who didn’t want to leave their sons behind. If woman’s aid goes ahead with this they are pissing on those women’s graves.

I wonder how many of the 138 women who were murdered last year were women who didn’t want to leave their sons behind.

Transactivists know nothing of the lives of women.

I've never seen the inside of a rape crisis centre or women's aid shelter. I've never had to.

It doesn't stop me from knowing all about them. And not because I'm a feminist, either.

I wouldn't have had to read a damn thing about it, to have that knowledge.

busyboysmum thank you, I have signed. Might be worth starting a new thread just for this petition.

I just had a light bulb moment. The TAs are lobbying hard within Womens aid - and I bet this coincided with the reasonable demand to have women's groups consulted on the GRA.
Women & Equalities will think their job consulting women's groups is done once they speak to the biggest women's charity (without noticing that has been infiltrated and held to ransome by TAs).
Strategic MRA bastards.

Yes exactly. They have infiltrated or taken over every women's organisation.

I didn’t know women had to leave their boys behind. That is just heartbreaking.

Also, I feel like nobody’s asking - why do transwomen WANT to work in women’s refuges so much? Because apparently it’s a massive problem to them that they can’t. Why is there such demand?

They don't want to work in the refuges.

They want to fight.

Also, I feel like nobody’s asking - why do transwomen WANT to work in women’s refuges so much? Because apparently it’s a massive problem to them that they can’t. Why is there such demand?

They absolutely need to be asking that question. And be open to the unpalatable answer.

This might sound stupid but I've been wondering what DA victims would say if asked about this issue. I have a feeling there will be more than you would think who will not object to men helping them, especially if it is put to them within the context of appropriate vetting training etc. I know that sounds naive but I've heard surprising views on this both from victims and from support workers - although not even nearly enough people to generalise. I could be wrong, I think it will be interesting to see what WA come back with.

But Message, it is not right to waive or remove the right to single sex spaces simply because some women don’t have a problem with there being men around.

I think you cannot bring sons 13 yrs and older to refuges. There are other schemes to try to cater to families with older sons.

I have a feeling there will be more than you would think who will not object to men helping them,

Out of interest - what gives you this feeling? Have you spoken to any women who have lived in a refuge before?

(just to let you know my experience of having worked with women who have been victims of DV - I have a very, very strong 'feeling' that the vast majority would mind/feel uncomfortable - but probably wouldn't 'object' out loud)

Guardian - my thoughts were based on conversation with victims - only one had stayed in a refuge. Very limited experience but not completely random speculation. I found the responses unsettling because it made me wonder how much we are trained (not really the right word) to deny the reality of our experience.

Clearly I've posted about this in a clumsy way.

Thanks for replying that the views I've heard aren't typical. It's something I've been wondering.

RadicalFern I hadn't really worked out what I think the significance would be if that is the majority feedback. I was worrying more about the implications for influencing policy decisions - rather than the rights/wrongs.
Because arguing it's what women need would seem rather different if it's not backed up by what women are saying.

Messagefromyoshimi

This might sound stupid but I've been wondering what DA victims would say if asked about this issue.

One such person has started a thread. Unfortunately, for her, although it says feminist support, it's a little used part of the board.

So here is her answer.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/feminist_support/3158693-self-declared-transgender-males-working-in-womens-refuges

RadicalFern

Also, I feel like nobody’s asking - why do transwomen WANT to work in women’s refuges so much?

Any man who can't understand why women may not want men in rape refugees is exactly the sort of man who should never be considered.

There is no possible rational reason for man to demand access to rape victims.

So it's either for validation, or because of a the sexual fetish involved in autogynephilia, or to just exercise power for the sake of it.

A lot of people don't really think ahead about this sort of thing and then they get a male marriage guidance counsellor who is unconsciously biased or realise that they do mind a man doing their smear test when actually confronted with one. Or they find a bloke a bit creepy working with their kids and want to pull them out.
If you had asked them beforehand they would have said they had no problem with it.

My post was never that I don't get it. I absolutely do. That other thread linked is saying what I'd expect. But as per my posts I have been not all men-ed in the most unlikeliest of company/circumstances. Time will tell I guess. I think there's so many key moments missed. Common sense always on the hop. Now WA will conduct a survey (whatever their exact plan is) and I can see how it can be shaped to give results that will not be as per the thread Datun linked. I hope not.

Actually, men can play an important role in the support of women fleeing domestic abuse. We employ a male IDVA (Supporting the most serious cases). He used to be a police officer specialising in domestic abuse and has been incredibly effective in supporting women though the legal processes to protect themselves and their children. Our triage process ensures that he is placed only with women for whom a male worker is appropriate.

I make this point because I think that it is important to draw the distinction between male workers and those masquerading as female workers.

That's the point, though, is that the various legal and cultural challenges aimed at women's orgs are trying to prevent any such triage process from happening. Your org could employ 50% males individuals and, if there was a single position for which "must be female" was part of the requirements, that's the position they'd hone in on. In the Kimberly Nixon case he already had a job at a different rape crisis org that did employ trans women, but still went after Vancouver Rape Relief specifically because they didn't.

Yes, I do think WA are being exceptionally naïve here.

I think in their eyes transwomen are older people who have lived quietly as women for many years. I don't think they realise that this is a tiny group and it is much overshadowed by predatory men who intend to self-declare themselves as women.

If you believe the TRA rhetoric, transwomen are the most disadvantaged, the most suicidal, the most beaten of all "women". Surely their greater need for support would come before the rest of womankind? If refuges are based on need, then surely transwomen should come top every single time? Plus I suspect transwomen coming out of prison would also expect to be automatically accommodated there.

I've emailed our nearest shelter and had a good email exchange with the female manager there. My own feeling (not that she said that) is that WA will accept self-identified transwomen and then try to manage the situation such that women are either unaffected or minimally affected. I suspect that they think they'll be dealing with perhaps 10 transwomen (who have lived as women for decades) nationwide per year.

I don't think for a moment that they realise what they are up against. The first man to be turned down a place in the refuge will sue or kick up a fuss in the media. This will then happen when men are turned down for jobs and then senior jobs there. There will be men at every level in WA. Not by any coincidence, but because this is what they are setting out to do.

And then really, what's the actual point of WA?