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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Women’s Aid considers employing self-declared transwomen [i.e. men] in women's shelters

260 replies

cromeyellow0 · 04/02/2018 01:35

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/womens-refuges-may-get-transgender-staff-3txhcr8mb

The review of women’s refuges, which is not dependent on any government reform, was agreed last week by the board of the charity Women’s Aid, a federation that oversees more than 300 shelters.

Mary Mason, the board’s interim co-chairwoman, said: “We have agreed to start a review of our whole transgender policy, including the possibility of employment for self-declared transgender women without a gender recognition certificate.”

Describing it as “an extraordinarily difficult discussion,” Mason said the review, by Women’s Aid’s director of services, Nicki Norman, would take three to four months. Another board member, Sarah Forster, confirmed the move.

Where did the impetus come from? It shows yet another institution "getting ahead of the law", as a Labour MP would phrase it.

OP posts:
areyoufuckingcrazy · 04/02/2018 08:41

Wrote a long reply but there's no point is there? "Women" no longer exist, so it stands to reason that "Women's Aid" won't for much longer.

Fuck donating to them ever again.

IndominusRex · 04/02/2018 08:44

As someone in the sector I'm horrified by this as many people will be.

IndominusRex · 04/02/2018 08:45

Full text:

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Rape and abuse victims in women-only refuges face being looked after by biological men after England’s biggest group of women’s shelters decided to review its ban on transgender staff.

The move, which could overturn almost half a century of refuges being run by women for women, was described by some feminists last night as the most significant erosion of female spaces yet.

It comes after the government promised to consult on letting people change sex on demand. Activists insist that “self-declared” transgender women — most of whom retain male organs — should be allowed to enter and work in woman-only spaces.

Justine Greening, the former equalities minister who drove the sex-change reforms, admitted for the first time last night that the concerns of women’s groups must be taken more into account.

She told The Sunday Times she still supported change, but stressed that the government should be “absolutely listening to the voices of women’s groups in all this and their concerns”.

The review of women’s refuges, which is not dependent on any government reform, was agreed last week by the board of the charity Women’s Aid, a federation that oversees more than 300 shelters.

Mary Mason, the board’s interim co-chairwoman, said: “We have agreed to start a review of our whole transgender policy, including the possibility of employment for self-declared transgender women without a gender recognition certificate.”

Describing it as “an extraordinarily difficult discussion,” Mason said the review, by Women’s Aid’s director of services, Nicki Norman, would take three to four months. Another board member, Sarah Forster, confirmed the move.

Prominent feminists expressed concern at the development. “Recent victims of male violence need women-only spaces where they can feel safe from men,” said Stephanie Davies-Arai, of the campaign group Transgender Trend. “This risks retraumatising vulnerable and victimised women for the sake of ideology.”

Karen Ingala Smith, head of the women’s sexual and domestic violence charity NIA, said she was concerned.

“I hope refuge providers protect the ‘for women by women’ vision of the feminist survivors and activists who built the refuge movement.

“A women-only space is one of the ways we can create a sanctuary for women to begin their recovery from men’s violence. Women and children escaping violent men should at the very least be able to expect this of a refuge,” Smith added.

A rape victim who stayed in a Women’s Aid centre said: “I am terrified for other women if this happens. I went through a patch where I feared and could not bear the sight of any man. The wonderful support I got just could not have been provided by staff who, to all intents and purposes, are men.”

Women’s Aid stressed that local refuges would be fully consulted in the review and would still have a say over who they employed.

Refuges already allow trans women as clients, though they are permitted to exclude them on a case-by-case basis. Women’s Aid’s quality standards say its services must be “accessible to transgender women”.

Currently, staff who are on the premises all the time with access to all areas are not employed in refuges without a female birth certificate. All refuge job ads on the Women’s Aid website say the applicant must be a woman.

Only people born female — or who have gone through the Gender Recognition Act process to change sex — can get a woman’s birth certificate. The government promised to consult on making the process easier, but has delayed the consultation amid growing controversy over the issue.

Equalities legislation allows providers of single-sex services to discriminate where this is “a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim”.

Women’s groups also fear predatory men could use any change to access shelters. Such cases are rare but in Canada, a sex offender, Christopher Hambrook, posed as trans to obtain entry to shelters and commit attacks. This view was attacked by trans campaigner Sarah Brown, who said it “punishes vulnerable trans women for hypothetical acts of infiltration by men claiming to be trans women”.

Mrsmiguelcervantes · 04/02/2018 08:47

Do idiots like the vicar on BBC even vaguely understand how traumatised and vulnerable women in refuges are? How terrified of men they and their children often are? How vital it is that they can go to a safe haven where they will not encounter any males? Even the adult sons of women in refuges are banned from visiting!

But no, of course the main priority here is ensuring the trans women’s feelings aren’t hurt.

No decent trans woman who understands how upsetting her presence might be to traumatised women, would take a job in a refuge. So you’ll end up with wankers like Danielle Muscato applying, who don’t cars about the women in refuges but just want validation. So the women in refuges feel unsafe and go back to their abusive partners.

I am incandescent about this.

LangCleg · 04/02/2018 09:01

FFS. FFS. FFS.

This is what happens when charities become large and more like corporations than charities. The "boards" become so far removed from the purpose of the charity, they make ludicrous decisions for the mission because they make perfect sense to a capitalist/neoliberal entity. It's like Amnesty going pro-prostitution.

I think we need to start making lists of women's charities that are still women's charities (I can't believe I'm bloody typing this). I won't be giving any cash to any male-inclusive women's charities in future.

To be honest, I'd rather support smaller charities who are more cognisant of the actual need of their users in any case.

So, anyone know of any small, local, SINGLE SEX women's charities I could redirect donations to?

IndominusRex · 04/02/2018 09:04

I think Solace are women only. And Nia.

MyOwnShed · 04/02/2018 09:09

I wonder, are they being proactive in discussing this with no time pressures in order to clearly set their own terms and exemptions should self id come into law? If they already sometimes take in trans women, maybe they can factor a small part of the whole service as trans inclusive, in which setting trans employees might probably be appropriate. If they can set out researched, evidenced reasons for women only spaces, they will be in a stronger position.

ChemistryGeek · 04/02/2018 09:09

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

IndominusRex · 04/02/2018 09:16

Shed - let's hope so! If they are using this opportunity to ringfence women only spaces after a thorough risk review that will be excellent and I will increase my donations. If they decide 'yeah whatever self ID for the win' then they will never get another penny from me.

ReluctantCamper · 04/02/2018 09:17

not lost yet. they're consulting. do we have an address for women's aid? maybe some lobbying is in order?

also, I was heartened to see that Justine Greening has changed her position to wishing to consult with women's groups over self id. If true this is a major step on from #nodebate. I assume Women's Place will be getting a call sometime soon...?

ReluctantCamper · 04/02/2018 09:18

by lobbying I mean letters btw - not turning up on their doorsteps!

GoodyHemlock · 04/02/2018 09:20

So angry about this.

If you wanted to help traumatised and vulnerable women, but knew that your presence could make that trauma worse, you'd be looking for indirect ways to help wouldn't you? Eg. fundraising.

You wouldn't be putting your feelings above theirs and insisting on working directly with them.

IMO any TIM who wants that job has already shown they are not suitable for it.

IndominusRex · 04/02/2018 09:22

Yes Camper! 3 to 4 months consultation to we need to organise and make ourselves heard!

rb67 · 04/02/2018 09:25

If they don't comply with equalities guidance they can have funding stopped or have to go through a very expensive legal fight. You can see online how the rape crisis centre in Canada was aggressively pursued.
Im my experience there is a certain type of abusive man who will call constantly, email excessively, complain about smallest issues, threaten legal action, refuse to engage in conversation but then claim he is not listened to etc. These are also the type of men whose abuse goes beyond physical violence into stalking type behaviour. It takes enormous emotional and mental energy to deal with on a daily basis.
We need to enter the debate with Women's Aid rather than criticise as the trustees may be exhausted and browbeaten.

diddlemethis · 04/02/2018 09:28

I think Andi Dier might need a job after the Rose McGowan incident, this would be perfect. Andi could re-educate all those trans exclusionary rape victims who aren't considering Andi's pain when they talk about their biology.

(Trans speak really does mess with grammar)

rowdywoman1 · 04/02/2018 09:31

Agreed rb67

We need to 'keep our eye on the ball". It is not the beleagured trustees at Women;s Aid . It is the born men with zero empathy and insight into the needs of women but with an egotistical need for self validation who are the problem.

OvaHere · 04/02/2018 09:47

This is so depressing. Like toilets and changing rooms, women's refuges are cat nip for TIMs because so much validation.

I'm wondering what they are going to come up with next in order to access pre/postnatal and labour/delivery facilities after Datun pointed out yesterday there was a now deleted AIBU thread about a pretend pregnancy support group for TIMs.

boatyardblues · 04/02/2018 09:50

I’d be interested to hear Jess Phillips views on this.

HerFemaleness · 04/02/2018 09:54

What would happen if one of the women in the refuge objected to being counselled by a 6ft 5 o'clock shadow sprouting self-identified woman? Would she be told she's transphobic and given the choice to put up or leave?

glenthebattleostrich · 04/02/2018 09:56

I've just cancelled my regular donation to WA. I will not support this. I'm drafting an email telling them why.

I'll give the money directly to the refuge I volunteer at, as long as they don't drink the cool aid.

GirlScout72 · 04/02/2018 09:57

I'm probably stating the obvious here, but we need to get ORGANISED.

Women's Aid have the full force of EA2010 behind them and lawful exemptions to exclude trans staff and clients, EVEN IF they have a GRC, never mind the offensive woman imposter 'I feel like a woman' shit. That's the law.

I suggest we all keep an eye on Woman's Place and Fair Play for Women websites for actions we can take. We've got three or four months whilst this review goes ahead.

Also we need to take back the language, if you disliked the BBC piece, COMPLAIN - it takes two minutes www.bbc.co.uk/complaints/

I've heard a rumble that BBC are looking at trans reporting at the mo' due to complaints already, so vote with your feet.

Also here is the LAW on our right to single sex spaces fairplayforwomen.com/equality-act-2010_womens-rights/

And here is a summary of why this matters sages.org.uk/publications/sages-factsheet.html

There are public meetings being organised around the country by women's place, I've been too scared to go so far, but fuck it I'm going to the next one.

I don't know about anyone else but THIS is the one thing I'm prepared to chain myself to the railings for, this is IT, no more, I'm done.

But we need to organise, we have won these arguments before, we can win them again.

Solidarity women, I am so angry, I intend on channelling it.

Ilovemykid · 04/02/2018 09:59

This is truly scary. So a woman escaping male violence no longer has the right to not have men in her personal space???

rowdywoman1 · 04/02/2018 10:01

Amber Rudd just on Andrew Marr made some positive comments about the importance of women's safe spaces and the Equality Act allowing them.

Patodp · 04/02/2018 10:09

Women's aid will be a prime target for TRAs. I wouldn't be surprised if they have been contacted relentlessly already for being too "exclusionary", threatened, emotionally manipulated and bombarded by male entitlement.

I hope they stick with "only with a GRC" which is how it is currently. I am hopeful...

Patodp · 04/02/2018 10:10

girlscout72 thanks.
Hopefully I'll make it to a A Women's Place meeting in the need future.