M&S changing room policy

[iamawoman]

Apparently to allow any transperson in to which changing room they feel most comfortable. This is mentioned today as a transperdon was refused access to changing staff prob because they didnt look like the SEX of the changing room they wished to enter 🙄

datun but you cant tar all trans people with the same brush because there are a few intense activists? Thats like saying all feminists believe that 'all sex is rape' etc

Its being politicised out of fear. The extreme people are promoted to stir up fear. The extreme issues are talked about. Really there isnt that much to be afraid of here. Certainly with this particular issue. Its not going to harm anyone in M&S if people are allowed to use the changing room of their choice. But its been lumped in with all the other stuff and blown out of proportion.

windchimesabotage

Out of interest, would your friend be okay with using a gender neutral option, if all three options were available?

By 'gay men' people are referring to androphillic transwomen. Who are attracted to men, not women.

Whether you think they are gay men, or straight women depends upon your definitions.

Many transwomen are gynophillic, meaning attracted to women.

Since 85% don't have genital surgery, they are no different to any other man. Except for the validation part.

Bellamuerte Fri 02-Feb-18 12:00:06
I'm fine with mixed changing rooms as long as they're supervised and have lockable doors. Unsupervised changing rooms or those with just curtains are too open to abuse

What about cameras being put in the cubicles, pretty sure it's mostly men that do this. Never heard of a woman being a voyeur yet anyway.
Why make it any easier for this to happen?

isn't there some progressive solution in each of these scenarios?

I haven't heard one that is acceptable to transwomen.

The complaint is that they don't feel safe in the men's. But allowing any man into the women's does not solve that problem.

So a gender neutral option, would seem to be the ideal answer.

Except it isn't. Because it doesn't lead to validation.

So then you are left with the concept that access to the women's it's not about safety, but about validation.

Which is where I start to disagree.

rat I totally agree. Whether we like it or not trans people exist and we cant go backwards and we cant ignore it. We wont end up being able to have the discussions that we need to have about terminology and rights if we react in this knee jerk frightened and angry way to absolutely every thing that trans people try to do.
This M&S changing room issue is an absolute none issue. No girls will be put at risk from this. Maybe some wont feel as safe to go galloping across the communal areas in their pants as some pp was fondly reminiscing about, but to be honest I dont think thats a massive sacrifice to make to prevent transpeople being humiliated and put at risk of violence and ridicule when they are forced to use a changing room that they clearly dont identify with the gender of.

We should be working towards a way to make most public spaces both unisex and safe.

There is more of an argument to be had about important womens spaces such as refuges, medical facilities and centres for women etc. But thats a discussion thats never going to get very far if everyone is bickering over trying clothing on in M&S. Really we should be working together to protect both women and transpeople from male violence.

I do understand that people who were born women have had different experiences and need their own voice to be heard independently of trans women. But in this particular issue the fear is the same so surely we should be working together to secure the finances to make sure that there is a safe space for all of us ie enclosed changing rooms and good staffing levels.

Wind

No it's happening now.

Males self identifying as women to gain access to prisons, refuges.

Males self identifying as women to go onto female only lists for political representation

The changing room issue is smaller, granted, but look what happened in Target changing rooms when they made them 'unisex' or NB (was posted above but I will do it again). There are MANY other examples of this.

Self identification is the problem, not trans people.

datun of course she would. She doesnt give a shit as long as no one forces her to pretend shes a man.

For instance if transgenderism was considered a third option.

Their own rights, and changing rooms, their own system.

And women maintain their own system.

Ahh, but this is where you're going wrong Datun. Women don't have "their own system". There is no women's society and man's society, there is ONE SOCIETY within which women are afforded certain protections and facilities etc. due to their being either at some disadvantage or requiring some special consideration; this facilitates women in participating fully in that ONE SOCIETY.

So if society reckons transwomen need the same things as women in order to fully participate and benefit, there isn't actually any historical reason as to why they wouldn't just lump them in with the women, so long as that isn't seen to make things significantly harder for women.

I think that's where there is this disparity in viewpoints.

Also I think the suggestion is for a single gender-neutral space, rather than a third space. I can see why a third space would not be a mutually satisfactory solution, however a single one - with adequate security - would.

datun but you cant tar all trans people with the same brush because there are a few intense activists? Thats like saying all feminists believe that 'all sex is rape' etc

I totally understand where you're coming from. Especially since you know a perfectly nice transwoman who wouldn't hurt a fly. Who wants to give them extra stress, right?

But it's this, which reveals the problem

Its being politicised out of fear.

You wouldn't be able to 'politicise' fear into women, if they had no rationale to accept it.

Women don't go around trembling in the presence of men. (Although some women do).

But they have every logical and rational reason to be aware of how men dominate. In spaces, in discourse, in homes, using sexual harassment, and the knowledge that they are stronger and more powerful than us and can use that to rape and abuse.

And although, it's only a minority of men who go that far, no one has any idea whether they are being faced with a predator, voyeur, or someone who just doesn't realise that their lifelong socialisation to dominate is intimidating.

Women wanting to be amongst other women when they are in a vulnerable position is not just based on evidence or statistics, but one's own personal experience.

The 12 Million posts that the #metoo campaign ran to, were not written by women imagining any of this. Or an irrational fear.

Minimising male violence and propensity to dominate is not acceptable as a means of questioning women's boundaries.

But, worse, in my opinion is minimising women's reaction to it.

Please don't do it.

Wind chime, you’re not getting it.

Women - the group of humans born with vaginas and ovaries - need and deserve spaces and services where they will not encounter anyone with male genitals. That is a basic human right that women are about to lose. If you are happy with that, fine. Those of us who want to preserve our rights are very unhappy about it.

my friend is bisexual. Has had relationships with lesbians, other transwomen, and some men one of whom identified as straight (altho that didnt go very well he couldnt really handle the concept of it, he was one of our mutual friends and ended up being violent towards her) the others were bisexual.

I think calling her a 'gay man' is pretty offensive.

datun but you cant tar all trans people with the same brush because there are a few intense activists

Yet you are making assumptions about all trans identified males on the basis that your freind is nice so all the others must be nice. You haven't met these people whose rights you are championing and you really don't know whether they are harmless or not.

I genuinely don't believe that trans identified males are in any danger using men's changing rooms.

I dont think thats a massive sacrifice to make to prevent transpeople being humiliated and put at risk of violence and ridicule when they are forced to use a changing room that they clearly dont identify with the gender of.

Let me just get this straight. It's humiliating and dangerous for a transwoman to try stuff on in a cubicle in the male section, because of the men around, but it's not humiliating and dangerous to women to change the rules so any man is allowed to go in the female section.

This doesn't seem to be being considered logically.

Also I think the suggestion is for a single gender-neutral space, rather than a third space. I can see why a third space would not be a mutually satisfactory solution, however a single one - with adequate security - would.

Seriously! You are expecting woman to bend over backwards and bite their own arse.

Let men in, because it hurts their feelings, we won't take into account what women say, but because we know they're right, we will mitigate it all by providing security!

datun im not minimising womens natural fear. Im just saying that it is being played upon and provoked intentionally by groups who are incredibly transphobic. In America the christian right go in all guns blazing with it... waxing lyrical about their desire to 'protect women and children' and it has nothing t do with that it has to do with horror of anything outside the heterosexual family unit.

Its just sad that the shittest people tend to have the loudest voices.

I just dont think we should let natural fear cloud our judgement on individual issues.

Man forced to share M&S changing room with other men: unconscionable.

Women forced to share changing room with man: damn right they should, what's their problem.

As always, superior rights always seem to correlate with penis.

#ThePenisCorrelation

Ahh, but this is where you're going wrong Datun. Women don't have "their own system". There is no women's society and man's society, there is ONE SOCIETY within which women are afforded certain protections and facilities etc. due to their being either at some disadvantage or requiring some special consideration; this facilitates women in participating fully in that ONE SOCIETY

Ok rat! I don't think it's a profound point of difference. Whatever you call it. Women require different provision based on their biology. I'm calling that provision a system.

stoneage transwomen are at far more risk of harm from men that women are at risk of harm from transwomen.

You are trying to equate transwomen with men. Even if you do not accept trans women as women, you cannot insist they are just the same as men!

So what's satisfactory to trans women is vitally important, but what's satisfactory to women is irrelevant?

You know you're pushing it when even the infinitely patient Datun starts getting irritated.

Let men in, because it hurts their feelings, we won't take into account what women say, but because we know they're right, we will mitigate it all by providing security!

If women's safety and dignity had always been assured in changing rooms they would never have been segregated in the first place; if we can ensure safety and dignity there would surely be no need for segregation? There is no sex segregation in society that was purely arbitrary you know - it all served a purpose. We don't get to demand segregation just because we've come to enjoy it.

The hypocrisy of trans supporters is that if you laid these scenarios out to them without clarifying the SEX of the individuals, they wouldn't know who to support.

Person A believes they are the same as person B.
Person B believes they are NOT the same as A.

Does B have the right to be in a separate space from A?

There are only two spaces. And two types of people.

datun im not minimising womens natural fear.

That's exactly what you're doing. There's been several links posted on this thread and you're obviously not reading them.

transcrimeuk.com

Unless your freind has a grc they really shouldn't be in women s spaces.

I really don't mean to frustrate, and I can only imagine what it looks like to look out across society and see millions of people free-wheeling along with perspectives not all that dissimilar to mine.

Terfinater I think you're posting to the wrong user, no?

But which group is obligated to be the other group's loving mummies forever and ever, even if they've never met before, regardless of the cost to themselves, Barracker? Obviously they can't tell you who should be making the sacrifices until they know that.

'satisfactory to women' well its not satisfactory to me nor to many other women. Dont speak on behalf of 'women' as though this attitude is the only truth for a female.

Transpeoples desire to use the changing rooms of their choice does not conflict with the views of many women, this is a quite widely and intensely debated issue not just a given. Its not just women v transpeople.