M&S changing room policy

[iamawoman]

Apparently to allow any transperson in to which changing room they feel most comfortable. This is mentioned today as a transperdon was refused access to changing staff prob because they didnt look like the SEX of the changing room they wished to enter 🙄

Simple, spaces should be based on biology which is a measurable fact not on feelings which are unmeasurable. My vulnerability and oppression in life is based on biology not feelings any protections put in place need to take that into account first and foremost.

datun im not minimising womens natural fear. Im just saying that it is being played upon and provoked intentionally by groups who are incredibly transphobic.

I'm not sure that you quite realise how this has been going down. I really don't mean to be patronising, but do you see how the discourse goes with transwomen online?

On Twitter. Occasionally a dodgy one on here, although that is got less and we seem to have far more transwomen like your friend. On Facebook. And the many accounts of real life situations from women here on mumsnet.

The rape threats, doxxing and intimidation is real. It's not being played out in some dark corner of the Internet.

It's real, in these peoples lives. People have lost jobs. Peoples businesses have closed. Children have been targeted, their employers contacted. They have been stalked, both online and in real life.

I have seen, with my own eyes, the prelude to the violence at speakers corner, as I was on the train going there. I watched the organisation intended to attack women, unfold, in real time.

Now, of course, you would be perfectly within your rights, and very likely accurate, to say that this is not representative of the transwomen you know, or any other transwomen.

But given is these very people who are campaigning, going on Twitter and intimidating businesses, retailers and service providers, these the ones who will make an absolute point of discomforting women.

Meanwhile, people like your friend and curry and pigeon on here, are, quite legitimately, worried about the backlash.

I suspect your stance will be well we can't take any notice because people like my friend will be affected.

Whereas mine is I have to take notice because women will be affected.

stoneage transwomen are at far more risk of harm from men that women are at risk of harm from transwomen

What proof do you have of that? Are M&S men's changing rooms a hotbed of violence? Do we invite anyone at risk of violence to come and use the ladies with us? Is that how it should work?

How do I know that the male person coming in is a tru-trans and not some bloke wanting to peep through the curtains or plant a camera? Why does that even matter - if I'm saying that I'm uncomfortable with males in the female changing room, and I'm a female, why does a male get to override that, even if he really wishes he was female?

If you want to share changing rooms with trans women nobody is stopping you, windchimes. You don't get to make that choice for the rest of us.

terfinator seriously piss off with that view. My friend appears as a woman to people. And most importantly to men. For her to be in male spaces would put her at great risk of harm. Ive seen this in the reaction of people I thought were decent people. Men cant handle it. Men have even been violent towards her because of it. Particularly as shes traditionally attractive in terms of appearing feminine and that seems to make them even more angry. For the other trans women she is friends with the situation is similar. Shes not some sort of sacrificial goat for your views.

I dont understand how you could advocate someone being left to experience violence just so you dont have to have anyone with a penis near you. Shes no threat to women. The penis is not your problem. Toxic masculinity is the problem. And it can be a problem for people who have a penis too.

stoneage transwomen are at far more risk of harm from men that women are at risk of harm from transwomen.

You're not reading links.

Transwomen commit crime at exactly the same rate as natal men.

Of the transwomen in prison nearly half are there for sex offences. That is way above average.

You can, once again, try make a distinction between genuine trans-women and AGP transwomen or regular predators who say they are Trans.

But you will find youself thwarted in trying to make that distinction, because genuine transsexuals have been trying to do it for some time. And are being piled on.

'Transgender' according to stonewalls own website includes cross dressing fetishists. Not to mention all the generally misogynistic thugs who are drawn towards the ideology.

angryattackkittens but the way you are framing it you are making that choice for me? Because you are saying that i should go in the womens changing rooms and not be allowed in the mens and that transwomen should go in the mens and not be allowed in the womens. You are the one who is imposing a view not me. I want there to be unisex changing rooms that are safe so that no one is humiliated.

I read the feminism boards regularly but don’t feel well informed enough to usually contribute.

This has worried me. I usually step out of the individual changing rooms to get a better look (the individual cubicles are claustrophobic and unflattering with harsh, bright lighting). Safe in the knowledge I’m surrounded by other women so it doesn’t matter if the clothes turn out to be too sheer/ clingy/ unflattering. Like Kittens said, I’ve also had positive interactions with other women in this shared area.

Even if M&S has solid cubicle doors, if they adopt this policy the pressure is on for other retailers to follow suit, even those with flimsy curtains that don’t always cover the whole width of the cubicle. Will those retailers overhaul their changing areas? Of course not. Women will just be expected to put up and shut up with having strange men in what should be a women’s only space.

So create a third space so people like your friend don't have to share with men and women don't have to share with male people either. Problem solved!

"Women STFU and do what they're told" is not the only solution available.

Toxic masculinity is the problem yes but as a born male it is her responsibility to deal with her sex's violence not the responsibility of the opposite sex to make room and open themselves up to risk. Not from your friend but from others who will follow. Spaces need to be segregated by sex.

i should go in the womens changing rooms and not be allowed in the mens

We're not saying anything about the mens, you'll have to ask some men how they'd feel about you joining them there.

Of course it's apparently terribly violent in there, so perhaps you don't want to go in anyway (not that I've ever heard such things from anyone other than windchimes on this page)

Shes no threat to women.

But wind how do you expect other women to know that?!

None of this would be an issue if men came with a label. But they don't.

In fact male violence would diminish greatly if men came with a label. We would simply avoid them.

Unfortunately, we often end up marrying them! Statistically the greatest risk to a woman of physical violence by a man is marriage.

Women can date someone, sleep with them, and be engaged to them, and they still don't realise that they are violent.

It's simply not true that women can tell. I'm not suggesting your friend is violent, by the way. I'm sure she isn't.

RatRolyPoly Fri 02-Feb-18 12:30:57
We don't get to demand segregation just because we've come to enjoy it.

Why not? I enjoy not being in the male gaze. Why does my voice not count compared to mens voices?
Do you think women are responsible for the hijab? Why do you think many women choose to wear it?

Shes not some sort of sacrificial goat for your views.

But women are being offered up as exactly that so as to indulge the nonsensical fantasy that men can suddenly turn into women.

Windchimes, you may think your friend appears as a woman, but of course you can't possibly know whether other women perceive that.
It's very probable that they see a man and don't say anything. That is after all exactly what most women do when they see a man obviously attempting to pass as a woman. They say nothing.

I'm not male.
I don't care what people wear, their hair, makeup and clothing choices are irrelevant.
I'm the opposite sex to your friend, and if I refuse to share intimate spaces with the opposite sex that's my right. Whether you love your friend or not is not the issue. I love my dad, but I wouldn't expect you to shower next to him in the changing rooms at the pool.
Women's rights should not depend upon whether a man has been deemed lovely and harmless by his friends.

barracker but of course they should what do you mean? why should anyone be protected against anyone who poses no threat? this is just not how the future is shaping up to be im afraid. More things are becoming gender neutral less things are segregated. You cant go back in time. I view it as positive largely altho there are issues. Men and women are not completely different species the issue is behaviour. Hopefully one day women will not need protecting from men. Surely that is the ideal to strive for?

Transpeople's desire to use the changing rooms of their choice does not conflict with the views of many women, this is a quite widely and intensely debated issue not just a given

How do you know this? There has been no public consultation on this. It is not remotely up for public debate. It's only in forums like his that women can air their views anonymously.

Ever heard: transwomen are women #nodebate

That's what weren't up against. No discussion allowed.

I'm sure someone will have the stats, but aren't transwoman a statistical greater threat to women than other women

No. There are no stats that prove that they're any less of a threat than any other male. They're not "other women". They're men.

M&S are in a perfectly fine place to try this out.

Remove the segregated changing rooms, make it clear that sex doesn't matter any more, and see what happens. Then we'll have the data we need to be able to determine how people feel about it, and what the risks are.

ratrolypoly because the issue isnt about security at all that just whats said to justify it. Its about not wanting transwomen to be accepted at all.

Oh you're a mind reader?

What I'm saying is that a. we don't know what most women think about being expected to share spaces like changing rooms with trans women, and b. if even some women don't want to then they shouldn't have to. If it was just one or two women you *might" be able to argue that they've been outvoted, but in fact no vote has been taken, and it seems to be more than a few.

Unisex isn't the solution just because you personally would be OK with that. Other women's opinions matter too.

Hopefully one day women will not need protecting from men. Surely that is the ideal to strive for?

That would be excellent.

Removing the category of women is not the way to do it.

We are already having men being appointed on all women shortlists. Removing women's political representation.

You are ignoring the inherent power dynamic between men and women.

A disadvantage that feminists have fought tooth and nail to address. With laws regarding maternity leave, breastfeeding protocols, (things that affect their biology), the gender pay gap, the rape within marriage law, etc.

If men can suddenly be women and control the narrative around all this, which direction do you think that is going to going? If fact, which direction is it already going in?

With Labour's CLP women's officer being a 19-year-old boy who says biology is irrelevant and if womem disagree with him they will be asked to leave the Labour Party.

Part of his remit is to encourage women into politics...

Maybe we need to start fighting for sex segregated spaces for women all over again

I think we should all be pushing for well staffed unisex changing rooms with lockable floor length doors and I dont really see why that isnt achievable?

How about some are m/f, and some are unisex? Then you can hang out with trans identified males, and women and men who aren't comfortable with it can feel that their privacy, dignity and boundaries are respected and that their feelings count too?

Then we'll have the data we need to be able to determine how people feel about it, and what the risks are.

No you won't.

Should any crime be committed it will be recorded as being committed by woman. Not a man.

And women, many women who are uncomfortable will do nothing about it. We are socialised not to. They will simply put up with it.