M&S changing room policy

[iamawoman]

Apparently to allow any transperson in to which changing room they feel most comfortable. This is mentioned today as a transperdon was refused access to changing staff prob because they didnt look like the SEX of the changing room they wished to enter 🙄

But hey, we're all just a load of hobbyist "transphobes" with fuck all better to do with our time, right?

I've just seen a comment to that effect on the LM Independent article. I wonder if they had MN in mind?

I used to work in Evans as a Saturday girl when I was at school. We used to get a fair few transwomen in as middle aged transitioners are mostly big man sized and need the bigger clothes. Our changing rooms were 6 curtained cubicles very close together in the back of the store (not open to the shop floor.)
A lot of our female customers were extremely self conscious about their size. I used to do bra fittings (measurements only, but then gather a selection for the lady to try on her own). I can tell you that as a 14yo Saturday girl, I had no idea why the transwomen usually sought me out to measure them and help them out with bras.
To be fair to Evans, our policy was that I had to wait until all of our cubicles were empty before we allowed a trans woman in there. And then we ‘closed’ the fitting rooms until the TW left.
Until I was a good bit older, I hadn’t really understood why these men wanted tochat for so long about underwear. Particularly as all they really required was a bra that would go round them. Cup sizes weren’t exactly measurable.
I imagine most late transitioning AGP are shopping in Evans and M&S because they don’t fit into the teeny trendy stuff, so have to go for more matronly stores. (Obv the teenage shriekers with attitude and stubble are still scrawny enough to cause a stir in topshop).

Ffs this is all INSANE! Why was the thread deleted? Are our boundaries transphobic? Fuck Off, Fuck Off and FUCK OFF again!

Sorry but I just don't want someone with a penis in the same set of changing rooms as me or my teenage daughter.

@chocatoo Sorry but I just don't want someone with a penis in the same set of changing rooms as me or my teenage daughter.

Why on earth are you saying "sorry"?!

Do not be sorry. Do not make it sound like you are somehow in the wrong or that this is normal and you are an outlier.

People want to pretend that women who don't like this are in the minority. It suits their agenda to do so.

@ShotsFired You are quite right! I'm not sorry!

Please excuse if I don't use the correct terminology, its ignorance not malice. I couldn't give a flying fuck if a genuine trans person wants to/is allowed to use the changing rooms that match their appearance. I don't think they are the problem.
What I object to is predators intentionally using this to gain access without anyone batting an eyelid/being scared of saying anything because they are masquerading as a trans person.
I think people that will exploit this situation would probably be doing shit like this anyway regardless if they are trans or not, but at least right now they can be refused, rather than opening up a giant loophole that basically means if they say they are that gender then you can't refuse them. It's like handing an arsonist matches, no garuntee they will be used but the opportunity is now more freely available.
All the while the trans people will take the blame for predators like this as it's their desire to be accepted that is opening up these opportunities.
It's not fair on women (in this scenario, I'm aware men can be victims as well) and it's not fair on trans people, but I am totally stumped for a solution.
It seems that predatory individuals are actually to blame. If women were never preyed upon by men (and vice versa in some cases) then this would never be an issue as we wouldn't feel threatened by men in women's spaces. No one would care if a trans woman used the women's changing area/bathroom as there wouldn't be a threat, it would merely be a bit unusual to see if they were in the early stages of transition.
This however is not the case, there will always be arseholes that want to prey on others and will use whatever justification/access they can to be able to do it. This agenda is nothing to do with trans people, rather people trying to exploit their desire for equal treatment.
Sadly the easiest way to avoid this is to keep changing rooms/bathrooms etc segregated, doesn't mean it's fair to everyone, and doesn't mean people won't be preyed upon ever again but it's a case of protecting the most amount of people possible.

Nice, well lit, supervised, sturdy, lockable, to the floor cubicles would go a long way to making people feel a bit better about unisex changing rooms, maybe a specific cubicle for bra measuring that's a bit bigger, also lockable. The underwear bit I'm a bit flummoxed by, I would never get naked to try it on, maybe over some big pants, mainly as I don't know who has had a try on before.

Frosty you're absolutely right a movement to give rights to transsexuals has been appropriated by arseholes.

What a great post Frosty!

Sorry but I just don't want someone with a penis in the same set of changing rooms as me or my teenage daughter.

My local swimming pool has a very large mixed changing area with lockable cubicles and lockable showers. The lockers are in rows opposite the cubicles. Men, women and children are all co-mingling with no problems for the 3 years it's been opened. If this was your local pool would you stay away and advise your daughter to stay away?

Berk, they're getting rarer these days, but I can think of at least three of the older pools near me which don't have cubicles at all, just a communal male room and a communal female room.

I also question why girls can't "gallop" across communal areas in their pants, or enjoy trying on clothes with their mates, if they like. Why can trans women do basically whatever the fuck they want no matter how much women object, but young girls doing totally average young girl things need to be sneered at?

Berk not all leisure have lockable individual cubicles like yours - mine doesn't, only a few family sized cubicles.

Would you be happy for your teen dd to change in an open plan changing room in front of male bodies?

(Said leisure centre also has communal showers and had to put up a sign saying swimming costumes must be worn in the showers. Guess why...)

Our local pools have cubicles in a mixed changing area.

I rarely go and feel uneasy when I do. I keep checking the bottom and tops of the cubicle (they’re not floor to ceiling walls) as a few years ago a man was caught sticking a phone under the walls and filming young girls changing.

If they had floor to ceiling walls and doors I’d feel more comfortable.

In England and Wales in 2016, there were 8,347 cases of voyeurism prosecuted in the courts. Mostly in places where women and girls are changing - swimming pools, leisure centres, store changing rooms.

Just try googling:

www.google.co.uk/search?q=voyeur+leisure+centre

This is not this never happens. This is this always happens.

It's what planet do you live on that you didn't realize this was happening, honestly.

I don't know how the laws stands presently but I'd like it if shops were liable should recording devices be discovered in their changing rooms. I think even without TIMs demanding to use the changing rooms, the rapid development of tiny recording devices has put women and children at risk.

That's a really interesting point notafish the laws on data protection are changing in May with potentially large fines for slip ups. I've been told even cc'ing emails will have to be done carefully, as an email address is personal data. I suppose the negative side would be less public toilets and changing rooms if owners were liable for them being camera free.

Lostsight apologies, I haven't read the thread, so haven't read if you came back. Just wanted to say hello and that it was interesting reading your points about cultural differences.

Isn't the problem in changing areas with criminal or deviant individuals regardless of their gender identification status? The majority of us know how to behave respectfully and within the rule of law, hence at my pool where you are probably never more than 2 metres from a penis in the changing area at any time there have been no reported incidents in 3 years.

Im not saying it doesn't happen but are assaults or other crimes (filming etc) really going to increase significantly if self-id is enacted? Is there evidence for this in countries with self-id I wonder?

I can get on board with opposing the likes of Lily Madigan taking women only spaces on all female shortlists but the changing room thing I just think is not going to create problems that don't already exist.

They have (number of incidents increased) in Target stores in the US since they officially announced that the former women's toilets and changing areas were open to anyone who feels that they ought to be using them.

Yes berk there is evidence that allowing self id increases the number of incidents.

Currently the bloke at my leisure centre who prompted the need for a sign to clarify that swimming costumes must be worn in the shower was challenged (not trans, just a perv who like to flash at children - but same principle) and removed. In the brave new world no one would dare challenge for fear of being called bigot, and a challenge wouldn't work anyway.

OK. I see what you're saying about self-id emboldening criminals to offend if they feel the risk of challenge might be reduced due to protection of the legislation- but if they have committed an offence against a woman then that isn't going to be ignored and if they are using gender is as a ruse to offend then won't that be quickly dealt with by the courts? I don't know. Just pondering really. It's a lot to get the old head around.

if they have committed an offence against a woman then that isn't going to be ignored and if they are using gender is as a ruse to offend then won't that be quickly dealt with by the courts?

I wish that was the case, but did you see the thread about the serial sex offender who the Guardian supported being moved to a women's prison? People have abandoned all traces of common sense when it comes to this issue.

Berk, It's not going to stop them offending necessarily but it makes it a damn sight easier to gain access to their targets if they have a legal, plausible reason to be there. Also the offence may only be picked up if it's an actual attack or on someone of an age to comprehend it. It won't stop a perv from looking under the door and having a wank or exposing themselves to a child etc.
It's sad for transgender people that others are ruining it for them, I can't think of any reason to be afraid of having a genuine transgender person in a female changing room, they, like most of the world probably just want to try on clothes or go for a wee or a swim without any deviant thoughts or actions.
There are people who will though, and sadly I think it's is a numbers game, I personally think there are more pervy deviant people that will use self ID for their own gratification than there will be trans people who will use it for legitimate reasons. But that's a personal opinion.

It's a lot to get the old head around.

It is a lot.

And part of the problem is people who are questioning it, but without the context of fully appreciating the power dynamic that operates between men and women.

Because firstly, it's men who commit 98% of sexually crime and 90% of violent crime. Not women. And transwomen are a subset of men. They offend at the same rate.

So talking about something being 'regardless of gender identity' doesn't take into account the gendered crime pattern.

It's not about waiting until someone is raped.

A man can make a woman feel very uncomfortable and intimidated without committing any kind of crime. A concentrated look, a smirk, a sexist comment.

Those aren't crimes. You'd get nowhere with he's looking at me funny.

Which we all put up with on a daily basis on the tube, on the train, in the street, in a bar, at work.

Because we know, full well, that men are entitled to be there and what can you do?

But take the changing room at the gym. There are individual cubicles, or a communal changing area.

A man who identifies as a woman chooses the communal changing area. It's not forbidden for them to strip off. Women strip off. Or use moisturiser on their legs, whilst glancing up at you. Repeatedly.

The gym should be able to invoke an exemption to disallow them in there. If enough women complain. And the gym owners decide it is a 'proportional means to a legitimate aim', to forbid them access. Although, as far as I know, gyms don't necessarily come under the process of exemption. In other words, they are not specifically mentioned. (link below to the exemptions and how they can be invoked).

If they have a GRC, they will be considered legal women and it's much harder to eject them.

All this only makes sense if you understand the context. If you consider men and women identical, bar their genitals, then it doesn't make any sense.

Persuading women that the only reason they get raped, abused, intimidated, etc, is because 'some people' will always do that, doesn't really cut the mustard when some people is 98% men.

fairplayforwomen.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/EA2010_womensrights_-factsheet.pdf