M&S changing room policy

[iamawoman]

Apparently to allow any transperson in to which changing room they feel most comfortable. This is mentioned today as a transperdon was refused access to changing staff prob because they didnt look like the SEX of the changing room they wished to enter 🙄

If there was a way to protect the identity of the people taking the poll, yes. They may not feel able to be honest if they know their real names will be connected to their answers.

(This is often a problem with polling on controversial issues.)

Any yeah, not worth doing unless the poll makes it clear that "trans woman" does not mean "post operative transsexual exclusively attracted to men".

If the set-up of the changing rooms is done correctly - fully enclosed cubicles with locking doors and staffed just outside the doors at all times, a unisex changing doesn't bother me. However, there is already a danger to women in changing rooms from voyeurs setting up cameras when they manage to access them and all unisex cubicles will only add to that risk.

I don't know how the laws stands presently but I'd like it if shops were liable should recording devices be discovered in their changing rooms. I think even without TIMs demanding to use the changing rooms, the rapid development of tiny recording devices has put women and children at risk.

This is a problem, but if crime goes up, then that is going to be a count against it crime won't increase because how it's recorded is changed the only thing that will change is people will start going look women are committing more crime and men less

I'm not sure what shop I'm thinking of, could be Hobbs. Where they have individual changing rooms towards the end of the shop, but basically they open out onto the shopfloor.

They may have changed it, but they didn't used to have mirrors in. The only mirror was the communal mirror on the shopfloor.

So without knowing what on earth you looked like, you would have to go outside to see.

I don't know what the training was, but standing in the middle of a public place positively invites comment. Largely from the assistants, but also from random members of the public. Even the waiting male partners of some of the women.

I would only ever shop there as a last resort and my heart would sink as I entered, with an almost subliminal scan of who was sitting on the waiting chairs.

I'm a fairly body confident woman. But, as I pointed out above, difficult to dress. The process can be tortuous.

Privacy makes a massive difference.

I'd like to think women will vote with their feet. But I don't think they will. Most will just go on being uncomfortable.

Marks and Spencer's will not confirm to me that in this brace new world my teenage daughters are entitled to an actual female member of staff for the bra fittings. I'm not done with them yet.

This is not acceptable and anybody not respecting my rights is not getting my money.

Last time I was in the changing rooms in Debenhams with my teenage daughters there was an actual man in there who's sole purpose seemed to be to tell his wife what she looked fat in.

Why are we putting up with this shit? It's not acceptable.

Would you support some kind of national polling on the idea, theoretically

Well, let's see.
Would I support a national poll on the question of rolling back rights for black people? Probably not.

I feel the same way about sex based rights. In fact I'd like to see them strengthened, a lot, and I wouldn't poll about that either.

I support solutions for trans people that do not involve the pretence that male and female people are indistinguishable because .
You cannot support sex and gender both.

You cannot preserve the rights of an atheist at the same time as making religion compulsory.

You cannot preserve the rights of a sex by removing the means with which the law recognises them as a sex.

Exceptions to the rule, the definition of sex, break the rule. And then the rule is meaningless and worthless and the people it protects are unprotected.

I remember trying to take my boyfriend into the changing room at Selfridges with my in my late teens (because I was a dumb kid who thought it would be sexy for him to watch my try on lingerie), and as soon as the staff noticed they made him leave. While teenage me didn't see the problem (but I know him! he's lovely!), adult me does. Not quite sure how so many other women reached adulthood without the same change in perspective happening.

I absolutely do not want a TIM bra fitter. But I bet this scenario will happen, because males who like to make women uncomfortable as part of their fetish will be naturally drawn to such employment.

I support solutions for trans people that do not involve the pretence that male and female people are indistinguishable because .
You cannot support sex and gender both.

Hear hear.

Trans"wo"men want to be treated as their percieved gender and use ladies changing rooms to be safe from men presumably because they may harm them with their male gaze or penis, born women want to change in ladies changing rooms away from males for similar reason - therefore would a lone transwoman feel comfortable to share changing area with a group of young men who appear visibly male - and you cant ask if they self id as female as that would be transphobic

And he'll go on and on about how he knows what's it's like to have breasts and isn't it wonderful being able to talk about breasts together, like girls do, and tee hee isn't it also funny when we touch each other's boobs, like girls do? Girl talk! Bonding! Girl talk always gives girls an erection, right?

The "what could possibly go wrong?" people really, really need to look up autogynephilia. It's far more common than gender dysphoria is, so guess which group of people we'll end up dealing with larger numbers of?

There already is a tim bra fitter.
In
M&S

Oxford Street I believe

BarrackerBarmer are you fucking shitting me????

I just made the same face I did when reading the Paris Lees article about how sexy Tories are again. I've bought bras in that M&S! I mean, it was a long time ago, but still.

It doesn't surprise me in the least. Fucker.

Seriously I have had enough! In the words of Mrs Banks when are 'we going to Downing Street to throw things at the prime minister? (Actually I'd rather throw things at Corbyn)

Can't we do both?

A few years back I worked for a small independent retailer that sold clothing and under garments (stockings, petticoats etc..) that seemed to appeal to a number of TIMs or perhaps the formerly known as TV. We ran into a few issues

They often took up a higher than usual amount of staff time either by phone or in person because of the in depth detail they wanted to go into discussing the clothing in relation to themselves. Some would venture further than that and conversations would take an uncomfortable turn with too much personal detail being revealed.

On one occasion a TIM (or maybe just a cross dresser- who can tell?) completely invaded my personal space by standing very close and attempting to engineer a conversation about how underwear feels on your skin under your clothes and what sort of underwear I preferred. This was my first real life #peaktrans moment as it was so clearly fetish driven and retail workers should not have to endure this. I think it would be very difficult now for any retail worker to object to this type of behaviour without being called a bigot.

They would quite frequently call and ask to visit out of hours, perhaps understandably, but this was totally vetoed as all the staff were female.

We only had the one singular changing cubicle so that wasn't really an issue and at that time a number would mail order anyway.

We also had a few issues with damaged clothing. Perhaps not a biggie in the grand scheme of things for a large chain but for a small retailer it is. Our blouses and dresses were just not designed for the broad frame of male bodied people trying them on. But of course in reality you cannot refuse anyone to try things on based on this. It is however just another small example of a female run business aimed at females being compromised by males. Similar to that bra company that was attacked on Twitter.

It's my experiences in retail of men who now fall under the TG umbrella that make me very concerned about self ID because the vast majority were very much not like our female customers in their behaviour.

Ovahere - very interesting to hear this side of the story

@stoneagefertilitydoll How do I know that the male person coming in is a tru-trans and not some bloke wanting to peep through the curtains or plant a camera? Why does that even matter - if I'm saying that I'm uncomfortable with males in the female changing room, and I'm a female, why does a male get to override that, even if he really wishes he was female?

Because in @windchimesabotage's world, any woman trying clothes on in a perfectly normal manner (as I described in my younger self scenario) is relayed as the slightly more hysterical galloping across the communal areas in their pants (although, why the holy fuck should we not?!) and we should STFU and let anyone in to ensure their needs are met as a priority. Because in her world, all trans people are lovely kindly folk who wouldn't harm a fly and we are [ding, Ding, DING! We have a winner!] "transphobic" for suggesting otherwise.

The fact she is refusing/unwilling/unable to grasp is that there people already claiming to be trans specifically for predatory purposes is more than worrying. 1) because it's true and happening and 2) because it (negatively) affects her dear friend too, not to mention every other category of female who would like a penis-free zone when they are vulnerable and for whom we are speaking out.

But hey, we're all just a load of hobbyist "transphobes" with fuck all better to do with our time, right?

Ova

BarrackerBarmerare you fucking shitting me????

I wish I was but nope.
There was a thread about it at the time but it was deleted. It was last summer.

Any man who is asking me to justify my boundaries should, by dint of that question, be excluded from my spaces.

Primarily because M&S changing rooms are well staffed and well lit. They all have thick and long lockable doors.

The one at Eltham yesterday was dark, no staff, there were 2 cubicles with lockable doors and the 1 wheelchair accessible cubicle just had a curtain.

I was in there trying on bras and would not have been happy for there to be men in there especially as I can only use the only cubicle without a locking door