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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Transgender and womens spaces

279 replies

mummybear701 · 27/01/2018 13:39

Given the high number of transgender topics on the feminism board this week, I thought I'd post the best piece on the myths floating around I have seen. Whatever side of the fence you are on, it is worthy of consideration of the real effect or otherwise on womens spaces, most of whom already have the ability to exclude transwomen as a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.

bellacaledonia.org.uk/2018/01/23/gender-recognition-its-not-what-you-think/

The Scottish Government is currently looking at reforming the system of gender recognition which allows transgender people to be legally recognised in the gender roles in which they live. Given some of the statements that have been made about this in the press and in social media, it’s not surprising that some people are alarmed about it. Here’s why you shouldn’t be.

Access to toilets

Some people have expressed concern that making it easier to change gender will mean men start going into women’s toilets, claiming to be female themselves and endangering women. This is not the case, however, because men can already go into women’s toilets, without having to pretend to be anything but themselves. There are no laws restricting who uses which toilets, just customs. There are, however, laws dealing with breach of the peace, harassment and assault. In other words, if men choose to do this, the law can already deal with it. Changes to gender recognition would make no difference.

In those US states that have passed laws to say people can only use toilets associated with the sex they were registered as at birth, trans men have to use the women’s toilets. This makes it easier for predators, who don’t need to make any effort at disguise. They can just claim to be trans men. Who’s going to check?

There are vanishingly few cases of trans women causing trouble in women’s toilets, anywhere in the world. Like most other people, they generally go to the toilets because they need to pee. Some trans women look quite masculine, but this doesn’t mean they’re men – it just means that their bodies don’t fit social expectations, and most women know how tough that can be. If they try using the men’s toilets, they face serious risks – a recent US study found that 47% of trans women have experienced sexual assault at least once in their lives.

The prison system

Fears have also been expressed that the government’s proposed changes will lead to men being able to say they are women and get moved straight into women’s prisons. In fact the Scottish Prison System already deals with prisoners on a case by case basis. No Gender Recognition Certificate is needed for a trans woman to be placed in a women’s prison if staff, after consulting with a psychiatrist, believe it is the best option for her mental health. A move like this often involved extra precautions to ensure that she can fit in and isn’t in danger from other prisoners. People who say they are trans but whose behaviour is considered dangerous to other prisoners are not moved, but are usually placed in high security units where they can live as women without being in danger from other prisoners. (This is why trans prisoners are disproportionately found in such units – there is no evidence to show that they are more likely to commit the kind of crimes normally associated with such places).

Sexual assault support services

There are, understandably, few places where women feel more vulnerable than in sexual assault support services. A few years ago, trans women were almost always excluded from such spaces, but in recent years organisations like Rape Crisis Scotland have welcomed them, recognising that they can need help just as much as other women. This means that changes to gender recognition will make no difference to the possibility of encountering a trans woman in such spaces. None of these organisations have reported problems as a result of extending support to trans women.

Gynaecology

Some people worry that gender recognition will mean that men pretending to be women will suddenly start being employed by NHS Scotland to provide intimate women’s services. In fact, the NHS has employed trans women in gynaecology wards for years. It has also employed men. Most patients don’t have a problem with this because all they want is a professional service. If they feel uncomfortable about it, for any reason, they will normally be offered an appointment with somebody else, because everybody recognises patient well-being as a priority. This is the case even when, as is sadly often the case, a patient objects to being treated by a black or Muslim health professional.

Women-only shortlists

If trans women don’t pose a physical risk to other women, is there still a danger that they will take up spaces on lists intended to help women make progress, e.g. in politics? Again, most organisations that run such lists – including the Labour Party, which is currently at the centre of a media storm over this – have included trans women for years, so nothing is going to change. They see trans women as being vulnerable to the same discrimination as other women. In fact, trans women face additional barriers on top of those affecting women more generally – transphobic discrimination in employment is commonplace and a recent Stonewall survey found that a shocking one in eight trans people have been physically assaulted at work.

So what do the proposed changes mean?

In fact, all the proposed changes to gender recognition mean is that the bureaucracy of changing legal gender will be simpler (there will still be plenty of paperwork to put off anybody who’s not serious about it). They will mean that trans people, like other people, are recognised as better placed to recognise their own gender than anyone else. The system will be more accessible to people from all class backgrounds, and easier access to identity documents that match their appearance will help protect people from discrimination. For the vast majority of non-trans people, it will make no difference to anything.

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RatRolyPoly · 29/01/2018 15:16

I apologise for any offence caused to victims of offences, and I was assuming the "monster" of the example was in fact conjured.

I've been in many changing rooms but have never seen ones that don't have several cubicles in addition to communal spaces. I can see that were there no cubicles this scenario would be possible, but I think in reality there would be practical ways of managing it.

AngryAttackKittens · 29/01/2018 15:17

BTW points to Pigeon for coining nu-trans - much like nu-metal it brings to mind a shitty, inferior version of the thing it was named for that brings shame upon said original thing. Plus it makes me picture that guy from Limp Bizkit in a wig and fake boobs, but still with his stupid baggy shorts on.

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 29/01/2018 15:18

Have you seen the sort of people I'm being bunged in with?!

Thanks Pidgeon, that's exactly what I was trying to get at.

RatRolyPoly · 29/01/2018 15:19

Am I though Angry and Myunicorn? Am I shouting "you're wrong!"? I mean I don't think you're right but I'm hearing you and I'm raising my objections as they present themselves. If this isn't how one has discussions you'd better tell the university that awarded me my (relevant) degree. I will concede I do have a habit of presenting my opinions as definitive, but I'm not alone in that.

LangCleg · 29/01/2018 15:19

I'm sorry, I didn't realise there was only one position that was above ridicule. Or rather I did, and I wonder if you're aware that's how these threads come across.

Well, try and come up with a position that doesn't subordinate female consent and women's rights to male demands and you might find yourself less likely to be ridiculed on a bloody feminist board.

AngryAttackKittens · 29/01/2018 15:22

I will concede I do have a habit of presenting my opinions as definitive

Finally, a tiny moment of self-awareness.

I'm not sure why you think that people taking the piss is not part of the normal way that discussions go. Mumsnet isn't a debating society, there's nobody standing to the side ensuring that we follow whatever set of rules you've decided apply.

2018username · 29/01/2018 15:22

Essentially, women are being forced to take part in the sexual fetishes of men in the guise of them being ‘trans’. Which is quite frankly a massive insult to those with dysphoria who just want to get on with their lives.

This. This. And THIS again!

stoneagefertilitydoll · 29/01/2018 15:24

Should the fight for our equality be at the expense of other marginalised groups?

followed by:

which is why trans girls were asked to use disabled toilet and changing for PE, still do afaik

Is there some reason that rather than fight for a 3rd space, trans girls need to trample either on girls spaces or disabled spaces? Because you seem to be contradicting yourself a bit about who gets to trample on who's oppression.

AngryAttackKittens · 29/01/2018 15:24

Precisely. Under self-ID nobody wins but the fetishists and the MRAs who don't even bother with "presenting" as women, like the one who was bullying the women on his own side at Speakers Corner.

titchy · 29/01/2018 15:24

but I think in reality there would be practical ways of managing it.

But WHY should women be expected to manage it? How about TIM finding a way of managing it.

FWIW what do you do when the cubicles are all full? How should the girls Lila Perry was at school with supposed to manage it?

AngryAttackKittens · 29/01/2018 15:26

Oh, and the one who beat the woman up, unless we're now arguing that wearing leggings = woman.

I miss the 70s and 80s, when it was OK for people not to dress like gender stereotypes and nobody thought it made them a different sex.

titchy · 29/01/2018 15:28

How should the Vancouver Rape Relief Society have managed Kimberley Nixon? How should the homeless women that were asked to share Danielle Muscato's room in the shelter have managed it?

RatRolyPoly · 29/01/2018 15:29

Angry try telling me you aren't presenting your opinions as facts. And it wouldn't take two seconds to find out I'm far from new to mumsnet. Of course piss-taking is par for the course, but I'm welcome to call it out when I think you're using it lazily to undermine me for not confirming to your viewpoint.

RatRolyPoly · 29/01/2018 15:30

*confOrming

AngryAttackKittens · 29/01/2018 15:31

Excellent then, you're free to complain and we're free to keep taking the piss when someone frames women's lack of consent as problematic when it hurts men's feelings.

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 29/01/2018 15:33

Is there a term for 'old-fashioned' trans people that distinguishes you from AGPs and assorted misogynists and which you are happy with?

It would be so helpful to be able to draw that distinction

RatRolyPoly · 29/01/2018 15:34

try and come up with a position that doesn't subordinate female consent and women's rights to male demands

Being a feminist I obviously don't think my position equates to that, so I come onto these threads partly to understand why others do. I see the arguments, and I don't necessarily think they're valid, so I challenge them and express my perspective.

RatRolyPoly · 29/01/2018 15:35

frames women's lack of consent as problematic when it hurts men's feelings

If someone did that I'd complain about that too.

AngryAttackKittens · 29/01/2018 15:37

Excellent! We await your complaint about yourself with baited breath.

More seriously, you'd think that dozens of women saying "I absolutely do not consent to this" would register as a problem even if you yourself do consent to the same thing.

AngryAttackKittens · 29/01/2018 15:38

Oh, and Pigeon saying "I don't consent to this being demanded on my behalf". I guess it's that invisibility cloak that gender critical trans people seem to have at work again.

Geronimoleapinglizards · 29/01/2018 15:48

Rat I for example one am glad you're sticking around to discuss this. It's far better than saying 'you're all mean' and running off.

I've been in many changing rooms but have never seen ones that don't have several cubicles in addition to communal spaces. I can see that were there no cubicles this scenario would be possible, but I think in reality there would be practical ways of managing it.

In the days I used to swim, I'd head straight for a cubicle because I hated my body so much I didn't want even other women to see it.

The pool I used had a small, constant stream of people using it but there was also a small infants pool which had again had a constant stream of people using it. There were about 6 cubicles and often maybe 10 women changing their babies ready for using the infant pool where classes took place in addition to five or six other women who, like me, just wanted to use the main pool.

If a voyeuristic man who supposedly self-ided walked in, there wouldn't have been enough cubicles for all the women. And besides, in that scenario I'd still feel terrified in case the man decided to peep under my door.

I agree with titchy. Why should women have to manage these potential scenarios? Why can't we just have our needs listened to?

slightlybefuddledlibrarian · 29/01/2018 15:49

Rat - could you just backtrack a bit and answer the Kimberly Nixon and Danielle Muscato question? And Marie Dean, too, please. (Tara Hudson optional)
This subject is so emotive because, like you, people are assuming that all transwomen are vulnerable individuals suffering from gender dysphoria. The current reality is that the new wave of men ‘identifying as women’ are actually AGP, and not dysphoric at all.
Without highlighting this, of course it makes women look bigoted. But in reality, this is the real reason for sex-segregation - to prevent men accessing women’s bodies for their own gratification, against the woman’s consent.
No one on FWR has any issue with transpeople. But self-ID means that any man with a sexual fetish can gain unfettered access to women, and the women will be breaking the law to complain.
Women have already been affected, because the trans-lobby has been so demonstrably effective. We have had vulnerable women thrown out of refuges because of Danielle Muscato (of ‘suck my ladydick’ fame) female prisoners housed with Tara ‘seven inch surprise’ Hudson etc.
This is not transphobia or bigotry. This is a last ditch attempt to preserve sex-segregated biologically space, for the reason it was set up in the first place.
And please, if you do nothing else, do take a look at #transgirl. This is the new trans ideal. This is what women need to be mindful of when they are supporting self-Id. Those ‘women’ will be in intimate spaces with you and your daughters. Some of them already are.

PencilsInSpace · 29/01/2018 15:49

Thanks TransHobbit. Do you know what specific issues people are having with the process?

Reading the trans equality report, the objections to the current procedure seem to be the level of medical detail people are required to provide as well as a basic objection to gender dysphoria as a requirement in the first place.

This is my sticking point with self-ID. I think the granting of a GRC should be on the basis of a person having gender dysphoria and I want that to be properly evidenced.

The last quarterly statistics show that 92% of aplicants are granted a full GRC (no indication how many of the remaining 8% are granted an interim certificate).

Disability benefits are an interesting comparison. I don't have the figures to hand but I don't believe there is anywhere like that success rate for PIP, ESA or UC LCW/LCWRA. Certainly there are very high numbers of decisions overturned at appeal. Also the level of detail required to claim these, as well as the face to face assessments, appear to me to be far more onerous than the level of evidence required for a GRC. Then you have to do the whole thing again when you're reassessed in a few months-years.

AngryAttackKittens · 29/01/2018 15:53

Even if cubicles are available, when using one you've just backed yourself into a space in which, if the other person can get into it via forcing the door or going under/over it, you will then be trapped with that person. All of which could be avoiding by not allowing male people into the changing room in the first place.

TellsEveryoneRealFacts · 29/01/2018 15:57

Rat - It is these people that women are actually worried about, not genuine Trans identifying males as mentioned earlier.

Transgender and womens spaces
Transgender and womens spaces
Transgender and womens spaces