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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Transgender and womens spaces

279 replies

mummybear701 · 27/01/2018 13:39

Given the high number of transgender topics on the feminism board this week, I thought I'd post the best piece on the myths floating around I have seen. Whatever side of the fence you are on, it is worthy of consideration of the real effect or otherwise on womens spaces, most of whom already have the ability to exclude transwomen as a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.

bellacaledonia.org.uk/2018/01/23/gender-recognition-its-not-what-you-think/

The Scottish Government is currently looking at reforming the system of gender recognition which allows transgender people to be legally recognised in the gender roles in which they live. Given some of the statements that have been made about this in the press and in social media, it’s not surprising that some people are alarmed about it. Here’s why you shouldn’t be.

Access to toilets

Some people have expressed concern that making it easier to change gender will mean men start going into women’s toilets, claiming to be female themselves and endangering women. This is not the case, however, because men can already go into women’s toilets, without having to pretend to be anything but themselves. There are no laws restricting who uses which toilets, just customs. There are, however, laws dealing with breach of the peace, harassment and assault. In other words, if men choose to do this, the law can already deal with it. Changes to gender recognition would make no difference.

In those US states that have passed laws to say people can only use toilets associated with the sex they were registered as at birth, trans men have to use the women’s toilets. This makes it easier for predators, who don’t need to make any effort at disguise. They can just claim to be trans men. Who’s going to check?

There are vanishingly few cases of trans women causing trouble in women’s toilets, anywhere in the world. Like most other people, they generally go to the toilets because they need to pee. Some trans women look quite masculine, but this doesn’t mean they’re men – it just means that their bodies don’t fit social expectations, and most women know how tough that can be. If they try using the men’s toilets, they face serious risks – a recent US study found that 47% of trans women have experienced sexual assault at least once in their lives.

The prison system

Fears have also been expressed that the government’s proposed changes will lead to men being able to say they are women and get moved straight into women’s prisons. In fact the Scottish Prison System already deals with prisoners on a case by case basis. No Gender Recognition Certificate is needed for a trans woman to be placed in a women’s prison if staff, after consulting with a psychiatrist, believe it is the best option for her mental health. A move like this often involved extra precautions to ensure that she can fit in and isn’t in danger from other prisoners. People who say they are trans but whose behaviour is considered dangerous to other prisoners are not moved, but are usually placed in high security units where they can live as women without being in danger from other prisoners. (This is why trans prisoners are disproportionately found in such units – there is no evidence to show that they are more likely to commit the kind of crimes normally associated with such places).

Sexual assault support services

There are, understandably, few places where women feel more vulnerable than in sexual assault support services. A few years ago, trans women were almost always excluded from such spaces, but in recent years organisations like Rape Crisis Scotland have welcomed them, recognising that they can need help just as much as other women. This means that changes to gender recognition will make no difference to the possibility of encountering a trans woman in such spaces. None of these organisations have reported problems as a result of extending support to trans women.

Gynaecology

Some people worry that gender recognition will mean that men pretending to be women will suddenly start being employed by NHS Scotland to provide intimate women’s services. In fact, the NHS has employed trans women in gynaecology wards for years. It has also employed men. Most patients don’t have a problem with this because all they want is a professional service. If they feel uncomfortable about it, for any reason, they will normally be offered an appointment with somebody else, because everybody recognises patient well-being as a priority. This is the case even when, as is sadly often the case, a patient objects to being treated by a black or Muslim health professional.

Women-only shortlists

If trans women don’t pose a physical risk to other women, is there still a danger that they will take up spaces on lists intended to help women make progress, e.g. in politics? Again, most organisations that run such lists – including the Labour Party, which is currently at the centre of a media storm over this – have included trans women for years, so nothing is going to change. They see trans women as being vulnerable to the same discrimination as other women. In fact, trans women face additional barriers on top of those affecting women more generally – transphobic discrimination in employment is commonplace and a recent Stonewall survey found that a shocking one in eight trans people have been physically assaulted at work.

So what do the proposed changes mean?

In fact, all the proposed changes to gender recognition mean is that the bureaucracy of changing legal gender will be simpler (there will still be plenty of paperwork to put off anybody who’s not serious about it). They will mean that trans people, like other people, are recognised as better placed to recognise their own gender than anyone else. The system will be more accessible to people from all class backgrounds, and easier access to identity documents that match their appearance will help protect people from discrimination. For the vast majority of non-trans people, it will make no difference to anything.

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Myunicornfliessideways · 29/01/2018 14:31

Well I wouldn't be justified in doing anything that not only had very little or no evidence of actually reducing the risk, but that also created an undignified and mentally damaging scenario for others.

I actually think that's barking, but you're entitled to your opinion. Interesting that in everything I said, the only thing you choose to respond to is to comment that the first thought of a woman regarding her own safety is 'am I negatively affecting the dignity and mental stability of any men?'

Its rather like that poor sex offender in the wrong prison at the moment. I'm sure the first thought of the 15 year old who was so affected by him was 'oh gosh I do hope my knickers didn't irritate the poor thing's penis while he was wanking into them'.

2018username · 29/01/2018 14:34

Again thank you for your help in showing the lurkers the level of engagement and debate coming from people who allege they are pro trans rights. It helps show that Mumsnet is not transphobic and instead is full of highly intelligent, educated posters who have put a lot of effort into researching this issue and should be listened to (I'm not referring to myself)

AngryAttackKittens · 29/01/2018 14:36

*Even now though I am aware that I am, in effect, a parody. Though not to the degree that more recent TRA's are (I would never try to assert that decorations, heels and makeup or even physical attributes are what makes a woman - for me it was all about my actual body)

I think that is why I'm so appalled at the 'nu-trans' idea that biology is offensive. No one I know who has transitioned in the past believes that we have removed all biological laws. The idea that I should be appalled by women talking about their biology or that I could ever get pregnant, need a smear test or lessen my muscular skeletal structure so that I could fairly compete with women in sport is the stuff of badly written fantasy.*

This, I think, is why old school trans women ought to be trying to find a way to work with women who're concerned about this issue, even though it's not going to be easy and they're sometimes going to hear things that upset and won't always get what they want. What the nu-trans group are essentially asking for is the right to perform their fetish wherever and however they want, and for there to be legal penalties attached to not playing along. They've gotten away with it to a certain extent because of male privilege and most of the public confusing them with old school transsexuals, but the public is starting to catch on, and when that happens there will be a backlash. It would be very easy for transsexuals to get caught up in that precisely because nu-trans have worked so hard to erase any distinctions between the two groups. So if old school transsexuals want to avoid that they need to speak up now, so the public starts to understand that what we have is one group of people who have dysphoria who want to change their bodies to resemble those of the other sex as much as possible and then disappear into the general population to whatever extent that's possible and another group of people who want to be able to take their fully intact penises into women's spaces and have a bit of a look around and a wank.

Once the public fully understands who the second group are and what they want they won't be having it, out of a desire to protect little girls if nothing else.

2018username · 29/01/2018 14:37

Pidgeon we've seen what you're being lumped in with. We're appalled on your behalf. This is one of our many issues (I'm sure you know that)

PencilsInSpace · 29/01/2018 14:41

Also a friend of a friend who has had all the surgeries and social transition and still getting hell over her GRC application.

I'm genuinely interested in this OP. Do you mind saying exactly what problem your friend is having?

The reason I ask is because from reading all the guidance documents as well as the guides from e.g. GIRES and UK Trans Info, it doesn't seem that onerous as long as you have 2 years worth of docs in your new ID and a diagnosis of GD. Yet I repeatedly read TRAs saying it's awful, prohibitively expensive, almost impossible etc.

Is there something I am missing?

RatRolyPoly · 29/01/2018 14:43

people who allege they are pro trans rights

I did not allege this.

AngryAttackKittens · 29/01/2018 14:44

Actually a 'third option' would make life much easier for these people, which is why trans girls were asked to use disabled toilet and changing for PE, still do afaik. The expense and logistics of them other than toilets (prisons etc.) put people off providing them. But this is the point - so many conflate declaration of gender with actual access to services, they are separate matters and always will be.

No, this is not in any way reflective of the current situation. What's been happening is that trans people have been offered the option of a third space in schools and have consistently refused it. There are multiple cases like this in the US and google is your friend. So maybe bring yourself up to date with what's actually going on before condescendingly lecturing others about what absolutely definitely won't be a problem.

DodoPatrol · 29/01/2018 14:44

I can well believe it's harder than it sounds to get a GRC, having spent far too much of my life battling 'computer says no' to get disability benefits or allowances or help for one of the children.

Administrative hell is not unusual.

DC can't self-certify as autistic, though.

RatRolyPoly · 29/01/2018 14:47

Mumsnet is not transphobic and instead is full of highly intelligent, educated posters who have put a lot of effort into researching this issue and should be listened to

Well, within this statement I agree that Mumsnet full of highly intelligent, educated posters who have put a lot of effort into researching this issue.

DodoPatrol · 29/01/2018 14:48

Pidge (sorry to keep name-checking you, must be Curry's day off), do you happen to know how many 'old-school' transsexuals there might be in the UK, to the roundest of figures? Is there a 'community' that might be able to join forces against the nu-style self-ID twitterati?

(I mean, I get the impression sometimes that most are on MN, but that probably isn't the case.)

HomeTerf · 29/01/2018 14:49

Angry I'm totally with you. It would be great to see a stronger, more focused alliance between transsexuals and feminists to remove the smokescreen of reasonableness and respectability nu-trans have been hiding behind.

AngryAttackKittens · 29/01/2018 14:53

I think part of the issue here is that alliances don't necessarily mean that we agree on everything, they just mean that we're willing to work together towards a common goal. Maybe making that clear would help.

TransHobbit · 29/01/2018 14:54

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

2018username · 29/01/2018 14:55

Dodo there's several excellent trans accounts on twitter who are firmly with feminists and trying to tackle the batshit! They get told by lunatics that they are wrong about trans rights! The situation is officially INSANE!

AngryAttackKittens · 29/01/2018 15:00

I see Rat is still at it.

Well I wouldn't be justified in doing anything that not only had very little or no evidence of actually reducing the risk, but that also created an undignified and mentally damaging scenario for others.

I care about as much about offending the dignity of someone who's attempting to use me as an unwilling participant in their kink as I do about the offending the dignity of someone who'd like to rob my flat.

2018username · 29/01/2018 15:02

Angry is rat returning from icing a cake or yet to start?

RatRolyPoly · 29/01/2018 15:05

You're missing the point of using a metaphorical example though aren't you Angry.

And look, whilst I've read enough of these threads expect derision for my perspective on this, I don't think it's good form from anyone actually open to discussion. I'm just engaging, which I'd always believed to be valid, is it not?

AngryAttackKittens · 29/01/2018 15:05

Well, you know, those cakes don't ice themselves!

RatRolyPoly · 29/01/2018 15:07

I'm sorry, I didn't realise there was only one position that was above ridicule. Or rather I did, and I wonder if you're aware that's how these threads come across.

Geronimoleapinglizards · 29/01/2018 15:08

Well we can all conjure monsters can't we - with our imaginations. Pretty sure no-one's allowed to expose themselves in public though.

Maybe I should have used the changing room of a sports centre rather than a toilet in my example. Have you been in any recently? I haven't but every time I've ever been, the family/women's room has been full of half naked women, and young children.

My example would absolutely apply to that scenario. Under self-id, a voueuristic man sitting there with his penis out couldn't be asked to leave, if he says it's a lady penis and he self-identifies as a woman.

Also 'conjure monsters?' Sorry but how offensive to any woman who's been assaulted or had the trauma of being the victim of a peeping tom. Creepy men aren't rare. I wish they were, but they aren't.

AngryAttackKittens · 29/01/2018 15:09

You're not attempting discussion though, Rat, you're just turning up, shouting "you're wrong and also nasty mean people!", and then rinse and repeat over and over again.

For old school transsexuals, no, wouldn't be a good metaphor. For the Marie Dean's and Danielle Muscato's and Travis Albanza's of the world though? At least the thief will probably just steal my ipad and not wank in my knickers drawer first, and would likely prefer if I wasn't there while they did it.

Myunicornfliessideways · 29/01/2018 15:12

So you're not going to actually engage or discuss anything, and you're going to set the precise acceptable standard for other people involved in the discussion you're not having. (Which rule of misogyny is it about however valid the point is that a woman is making, if she does not express it perfectly within the language, manner and to the expected standard it can be dismissed?)

You're having a laugh Grin Have a head girl badge and good luck with the cake.

NannyOggsKnickers · 29/01/2018 15:12

There is a massive issue of consent here too. This keeps bothering.

With the #metoo movement and the focus on sexual harassment everywhere at the moment, you would think that this would raise awareness of the sheer volume of sexual harassment and sexualised behaviour from men that women have to put up with.

Add to this the fact that the nu-trans movement seem to be centring the fetish element of autogenophila (clothes,make-up, underwear and shoes)

Essentially, women are being forced to take part in the sexual fetishes of men in the guise of them being ‘trans’. Which is quite frankly a massive insult to those with dysphoria who just want to get on with their lives.

It is lose/lose for women and most of the trans community. And only a win for the fetishists and gender fluid trenders.

AngryAttackKittens · 29/01/2018 15:13

Wouldn't it be great if male predators were so rare that you're about as likely to encounter one as you are to spot Nessie? I'd like to live in that world.

Geronimoleapinglizards · 29/01/2018 15:15

Well apparently Rat does. I'm up for moving there and being safer.