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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Transgender and womens spaces

279 replies

mummybear701 · 27/01/2018 13:39

Given the high number of transgender topics on the feminism board this week, I thought I'd post the best piece on the myths floating around I have seen. Whatever side of the fence you are on, it is worthy of consideration of the real effect or otherwise on womens spaces, most of whom already have the ability to exclude transwomen as a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.

bellacaledonia.org.uk/2018/01/23/gender-recognition-its-not-what-you-think/

The Scottish Government is currently looking at reforming the system of gender recognition which allows transgender people to be legally recognised in the gender roles in which they live. Given some of the statements that have been made about this in the press and in social media, it’s not surprising that some people are alarmed about it. Here’s why you shouldn’t be.

Access to toilets

Some people have expressed concern that making it easier to change gender will mean men start going into women’s toilets, claiming to be female themselves and endangering women. This is not the case, however, because men can already go into women’s toilets, without having to pretend to be anything but themselves. There are no laws restricting who uses which toilets, just customs. There are, however, laws dealing with breach of the peace, harassment and assault. In other words, if men choose to do this, the law can already deal with it. Changes to gender recognition would make no difference.

In those US states that have passed laws to say people can only use toilets associated with the sex they were registered as at birth, trans men have to use the women’s toilets. This makes it easier for predators, who don’t need to make any effort at disguise. They can just claim to be trans men. Who’s going to check?

There are vanishingly few cases of trans women causing trouble in women’s toilets, anywhere in the world. Like most other people, they generally go to the toilets because they need to pee. Some trans women look quite masculine, but this doesn’t mean they’re men – it just means that their bodies don’t fit social expectations, and most women know how tough that can be. If they try using the men’s toilets, they face serious risks – a recent US study found that 47% of trans women have experienced sexual assault at least once in their lives.

The prison system

Fears have also been expressed that the government’s proposed changes will lead to men being able to say they are women and get moved straight into women’s prisons. In fact the Scottish Prison System already deals with prisoners on a case by case basis. No Gender Recognition Certificate is needed for a trans woman to be placed in a women’s prison if staff, after consulting with a psychiatrist, believe it is the best option for her mental health. A move like this often involved extra precautions to ensure that she can fit in and isn’t in danger from other prisoners. People who say they are trans but whose behaviour is considered dangerous to other prisoners are not moved, but are usually placed in high security units where they can live as women without being in danger from other prisoners. (This is why trans prisoners are disproportionately found in such units – there is no evidence to show that they are more likely to commit the kind of crimes normally associated with such places).

Sexual assault support services

There are, understandably, few places where women feel more vulnerable than in sexual assault support services. A few years ago, trans women were almost always excluded from such spaces, but in recent years organisations like Rape Crisis Scotland have welcomed them, recognising that they can need help just as much as other women. This means that changes to gender recognition will make no difference to the possibility of encountering a trans woman in such spaces. None of these organisations have reported problems as a result of extending support to trans women.

Gynaecology

Some people worry that gender recognition will mean that men pretending to be women will suddenly start being employed by NHS Scotland to provide intimate women’s services. In fact, the NHS has employed trans women in gynaecology wards for years. It has also employed men. Most patients don’t have a problem with this because all they want is a professional service. If they feel uncomfortable about it, for any reason, they will normally be offered an appointment with somebody else, because everybody recognises patient well-being as a priority. This is the case even when, as is sadly often the case, a patient objects to being treated by a black or Muslim health professional.

Women-only shortlists

If trans women don’t pose a physical risk to other women, is there still a danger that they will take up spaces on lists intended to help women make progress, e.g. in politics? Again, most organisations that run such lists – including the Labour Party, which is currently at the centre of a media storm over this – have included trans women for years, so nothing is going to change. They see trans women as being vulnerable to the same discrimination as other women. In fact, trans women face additional barriers on top of those affecting women more generally – transphobic discrimination in employment is commonplace and a recent Stonewall survey found that a shocking one in eight trans people have been physically assaulted at work.

So what do the proposed changes mean?

In fact, all the proposed changes to gender recognition mean is that the bureaucracy of changing legal gender will be simpler (there will still be plenty of paperwork to put off anybody who’s not serious about it). They will mean that trans people, like other people, are recognised as better placed to recognise their own gender than anyone else. The system will be more accessible to people from all class backgrounds, and easier access to identity documents that match their appearance will help protect people from discrimination. For the vast majority of non-trans people, it will make no difference to anything.

OP posts:
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GretchenFranklin · 29/01/2018 13:07

yy to the woman on the left. As for the other picture, fuck me, I just snorted so much my tea came out of my nose.

RatRolyPoly · 29/01/2018 13:13

I'm with you @mummybear 701, in what little I know. MN is crazy on this and it is not an attitude I see borne out in real life (thankfully).

CisMyArse · 29/01/2018 13:14

I am also troubled people are still stating transwomen are men. This is sweeping and incorrect. Gender dysphoria is real and is serious.

You're contradicting yourself. What do you think Gender dysphoria is? Its a condition which inflicts real misery upon the sufferer and part of the symptoms is feeling of utter disconnection with their biological sex. It's a mental health condition which is sometimes alleviated through assuming traits of the opposite sex and this sometimes includes hormone therapy and surgery. They are however, still biologically male or female (as born). A trans woman is therefore a man and a trans man is a woman. They may assume the appearance of men or women, but they are not. They are Trans. Why make that something to be ashamed of? Own it!

Pansiesandredrosesandmarigolds · 29/01/2018 13:33

Thanks for the post OP - but you won’t get anywhere. It’s religion on this part of mumsnet that Disaster is Nigh because of transwomen.

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 29/01/2018 13:34

*Voyeuristic man sits in female toilets with his penis out

Scared woman usibg the facility with her young daughter calls the police to report him.

Voyeuristic man calmly says to a police officer 'sorry but I self id as a woman. I'm allowed to be here.'

Police are unable to take action.*

I think it might actually be worse than that. I think the mum and daughter might have just committed a hate crime. I'd be very happy to be corrected.

RatRolyPoly · 29/01/2018 13:49

*Voyeuristic man sits in female toilets with his penis out

Scared woman usibg the facility with her young daughter calls the police to report him.

Voyeuristic man calmly says to a police officer 'sorry but I self id as a woman. I'm allowed to be here.'

Police are unable to take action.*

Well we can all conjure monsters can't we - with our imaginations. Pretty sure no-one's allowed to expose themselves in public though.

What exactly is everyone suggesting as an alternative then? Woman walks to the toilets, someone's "not quite sure" she's actually a woman. She's stripped naked at the door but they're still not quite sure her genitals look "right". They forcibly draw blood... Phew, she's XX after all. On your way, love!

RatRolyPoly · 29/01/2018 13:50

That's better for women is it?

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 29/01/2018 13:53

What exactly is everyone suggesting as an alternative then?

The current status quo seems to be working pretty well for most of us. If it's not working for trans people I'd happily support a third gender neutral space for them.

Nb, men who expose themselves to women aren't monsters. There are a fair few of them around though, and we'd rather they stayed out of women's intimate spaces.

RatRolyPoly · 29/01/2018 14:01

The current status quo seems to be working pretty well for most of us.

Isn't that just "transwomen use the ladies' loos" then? Are you quite sure you haven't already been around that so many times without issue? What's wrong with formalising that? And if it does indeed represent a change, perhaps change is warranted! Because whilst it might be alright for you...

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 29/01/2018 14:04

can you define what you mean by 'transwomen' here?

lunamoth581 · 29/01/2018 14:07

Womens sport - already exempt for reasons stated numerous times. Nothing will change here.

Already happened in places/organizations allowing self id:

m.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/apr/7/andraya-yearwood-transgender-athlete-stars-on-fema/

thefederalist.com/2016/01/27/allowing-transgender-olympians-is-unfair-to-women/

Since this is what happens with self id how can you assure that it won't happen in Britain?

These are the IOC recommendations:

www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/sport/2016/jan/25/ioc-rules-transgender-athletes-can-take-part-in-olympics-without-surgery

Even if there is an exemption from self id in sports in Britain, female Olympic athletes may still find themselves competing against males in the Olympics.

What guarantee do you have that this will not be the case with self id in Britain?

Toilets - there never has been a law on use but a man or transwoman identifiable as a man may get hostility using female facilities. Whether they self id or not will not change that.

"May get hostility using female facilities." Hostility like what? Being asked to leave? Being told a male person does not belong in the female changing room? You're focusing entirely on transwomens wants and completely ignoring the points other posters have raised about how this violates women's rights. Care to actually address the concerns raised?

Refuge/prisons - I understand even a GRC or full sex change surgery does not automatically get transwomen into these spaces. That discretion has always existed and obviously will continue to. Trans people can already be excluded as a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim. So Huntley or the sex offender case posted on the board, no they should never get a transfer.

This has already happened:

www.google.com/amp/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/rapist-jessica-winfield-martin-ponting-transgender-transition-womens-prison-moved-hmp-bronzefield-a7640706.html%3famp

So what guarantee do you have that it won't happen again?

I am also troubled people are still stating transwomen are men. This is sweeping and incorrect. Gender dysphoria is real and is serious.

Transwomen are adult human males, aka men. This is objective reality. The presence or absence of gender dysphoria does not determine biological sex. Sex chromosomes, more specifically, the presence or absence of a Y chromosome determines biological sex. Human beings are a sexually dimorphic species and can not change biological sex. These are scientific facts. This is objective reality.
This is the hill I will die on. I will not get behind something that is factually incorrect.

RatRolyPoly · 29/01/2018 14:11

can you define what you mean by 'transwomen' here?

What difference are you going to tell me a semantic distinction would make? I think the broad term is sufficient, myself, but I'm interested in where you were going with this question.

2018username · 29/01/2018 14:12

Rat have you actually read the thread? Your posts bear such little relation to what the rest of us are speaking about I think you might be posting in the wrong place?

Myunicornfliessideways · 29/01/2018 14:13

Pretty sure no-one's allowed to expose themselves in public though.

It doesn't stop sexually offending men from doing this on a daily basis. One was arrested two streets away from me in McDonalds in the last couple of weeks, having done exactly this and then assaulted a young teenager. He was arrested.

Your argument has two common threads:

  • sexual offending men are going to do this to you anyway and self ID won't stop them

  • It's illegal to expose self/ molest/ assault now so if it happens women have legal recourse.

Yes. So do trans women against men offending in male toilets, and that's one of the given reasons they want to use women's toilets: it's not acceptable to say to that group 'oh it's illegal to treat you like that so if it happens you just call the police', but it seems fine to say this to women when asking them to submit to a major change in public provisions that increases the risks to them. A very small proportion of assaults etc ever make it as far as court and a conviction, and any woman (and most girls) know damn well a man can make a woman feel deeply uncomfortable, sexually intimidated and threatened if he wants to just by the way he looks at her or where he stands.

Take a look at the Guardian article celebrating the cross dressing male who describes how he likes to involve the shop assistants in selecting women's underwear because their involvement makes it a hotter sexual buzz, and how he likes to wink at them at the desk as he pays and smirk because he knows it says to them 'i know you're not enjoying this but I am'.

Currently sex segregation prevents twats like this from using women for their sexual jollies, and gives women clear recourse to protest and ask for the removal of a man in the wrong place. To say there is no additional risk to removing sex segregation is either extremely naiive or intentionally disingenous. Someone determined to break into your house to burgle it will probably find a way in, and it's illegal so you have legal recourse if they offend against you, but I'd be willing to bet you don't leave your door unlocked and that you do all you can to prevent yourself being a victim of crime.

What you're essentially trying to do is argue women out of believing they have a right to privacy from men or that their consent is relevant. It does not matter how you feel about using toilets/getting naked to change/having a smear test/laying in a hospital ward/being locked up for the night in a prison cell with a male stranger, there are women whose answer to this is no.

They don't have to get out their religion or culture or explain their trauma history or how this will effectively prevent them using those spaces, they don't have to justify their right to consent against you, and to pressure and argue against it is hardly progressive or even basically socially acceptable. Their answer is no.

In consent, no always trumps yes.

DickTERFin · 29/01/2018 14:13

Maybe they don't expose themselves but maybe (as I read on a delightful Reddit thread) they masturbate enough to produce pre-cum and then wipe a bit on the toilet tissue in each cubicle and then wait till an attractive women goes in to use the loo, so they can finish their wank whilst listening to them wipe themselves with the (unbeknownst to them), soiled tissue.

Yes, these deviants are going to do it anyway. No it isn't by any means all transwomen, many of whom just want to pee in peace. But I have no desire to make it easier for the dirty little shits who do this kind of thing, to gain access to womens spaces.

Deal with the epidemic of male sexual violence, then lets talk about shared spaces.

RatRolyPoly · 29/01/2018 14:15

Your posts bear such little relation to what the rest of us are speaking about

You're right, I only came on to thank the OP for the article... then I got distracted by quote and it begged me to bite. I didn't mean to derail.

RatRolyPoly · 29/01/2018 14:20

I'd be willing to bet you don't leave your door unlocked and that you do all you can to prevent yourself being a victim of crime

Well I wouldn't be justified in doing anything that not only had very little or no evidence of actually reducing the risk, but that also created an undignified and mentally damaging scenario for others.

nauticant · 29/01/2018 14:22

The OP's post in support of her original one is just a statement that the bad things that people are worried about won't happen. Even though some of them have already happened.

2018username · 29/01/2018 14:24

Rat thank you for confirming that you have not read the extremely thoughtful posts from all the women here, at least one of which is trans. That is incredibly helpful for lurkers to know.

Myunicornfliessideways · 29/01/2018 14:26

Just to add: I was walking the dog in broad daylight the other day when a man cycled past me and looked in a way that caught my attention. When I rounded the corner I saw he'd stopped at the entrance to the underpass, got off his bike, and he was leaning against the wall right at the entrance, smoking and watching me. No one else was on the path in either direction.

He didn't get his penis out. He didn't do a single thing wrong. But he was making me deeply uncomfortable, he knew it, and I knew damn well that to walk on past him into a dark underpass would be a really stupid thing to do. I abandoned my planned walk and went away.

Every day event for women. Why make it easier for offenders to offend and harder for women to avoid them? Or make it so that women no longer have safe spaces where they can be relaxed about these things but instead have to be prepared to abort having a wee/changing their clothes/getting a smear test/staying overnight in hospital at a second's notice because a twat has appeared and now has a bomb proof excuse of 'I'm a woman with every right to be here'.

PencilsInSpace · 29/01/2018 14:26

Refuge/prisons - I understand even a GRC or full sex change surgery does not automatically get transwomen into these spaces.

YOU UNDERSTAND WRONG

Apologies for shouting but this is really important. New Prison Service Instructions were released in 2016 and are available here. Scroll down to the word doc near the bottom of the page - '17/2016 The Care and Management of Transgender Offenders'.

TIMs with a GRC AUTOMATICALLY go to the women's estate. Discretion is applied on a case by case basis for those WITHOUT a GRC.

The equally terrifying flip side to this is that TIFs with a GRC AUTOMATICALLY go to the men's estate. Bear in mind we currently have an unexplained explosion in the number of girls identifying as trans, and from everything I have read they appear to be an especially vulnerable group.

But yeah, let's make getting a GRC really really easy and remove all checks and balances. What could possibly go wrong Hmm

OP, how about you actually research properly what's going on instead of farting around here telling us we're being mean?

RatRolyPoly · 29/01/2018 14:26

Sorry I wasn't clear, I have read the thread, although quickly. I have read the poster you refer to. I was agreeing that my posts were not in keeping, and that is because I didn't initially post to continue the existing discussion but to thank the OP. I hope that clears things up.

RatRolyPoly · 29/01/2018 14:27

Sorry 2018, my above post was in response to you.

TransHobbit · 29/01/2018 14:30

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

PidgeonPodge · 29/01/2018 14:30

What difference are you going to tell me a semantic distinction would make? I think the broad term is sufficient, myself, but I'm interested in where you were going with this question

Well, actually, I can see that the broadening of that term is extremely dangerous.

Have you seen the sort of people I'm being bunged in with?! Seriously, look up #transgirl on twitter. Those are the people who should never be let any where near a woman's space. And sadly now that the old honour system is going to be in ruins I'd prefer for people to start campaigning for completely separate places/sports categories etc.

However if we remove all AGP's and misogynistic transtrenders (who dn't even bother to dress up) I doubt there will be enough of us to justify them.