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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Transgender and womens spaces

279 replies

mummybear701 · 27/01/2018 13:39

Given the high number of transgender topics on the feminism board this week, I thought I'd post the best piece on the myths floating around I have seen. Whatever side of the fence you are on, it is worthy of consideration of the real effect or otherwise on womens spaces, most of whom already have the ability to exclude transwomen as a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.

bellacaledonia.org.uk/2018/01/23/gender-recognition-its-not-what-you-think/

The Scottish Government is currently looking at reforming the system of gender recognition which allows transgender people to be legally recognised in the gender roles in which they live. Given some of the statements that have been made about this in the press and in social media, it’s not surprising that some people are alarmed about it. Here’s why you shouldn’t be.

Access to toilets

Some people have expressed concern that making it easier to change gender will mean men start going into women’s toilets, claiming to be female themselves and endangering women. This is not the case, however, because men can already go into women’s toilets, without having to pretend to be anything but themselves. There are no laws restricting who uses which toilets, just customs. There are, however, laws dealing with breach of the peace, harassment and assault. In other words, if men choose to do this, the law can already deal with it. Changes to gender recognition would make no difference.

In those US states that have passed laws to say people can only use toilets associated with the sex they were registered as at birth, trans men have to use the women’s toilets. This makes it easier for predators, who don’t need to make any effort at disguise. They can just claim to be trans men. Who’s going to check?

There are vanishingly few cases of trans women causing trouble in women’s toilets, anywhere in the world. Like most other people, they generally go to the toilets because they need to pee. Some trans women look quite masculine, but this doesn’t mean they’re men – it just means that their bodies don’t fit social expectations, and most women know how tough that can be. If they try using the men’s toilets, they face serious risks – a recent US study found that 47% of trans women have experienced sexual assault at least once in their lives.

The prison system

Fears have also been expressed that the government’s proposed changes will lead to men being able to say they are women and get moved straight into women’s prisons. In fact the Scottish Prison System already deals with prisoners on a case by case basis. No Gender Recognition Certificate is needed for a trans woman to be placed in a women’s prison if staff, after consulting with a psychiatrist, believe it is the best option for her mental health. A move like this often involved extra precautions to ensure that she can fit in and isn’t in danger from other prisoners. People who say they are trans but whose behaviour is considered dangerous to other prisoners are not moved, but are usually placed in high security units where they can live as women without being in danger from other prisoners. (This is why trans prisoners are disproportionately found in such units – there is no evidence to show that they are more likely to commit the kind of crimes normally associated with such places).

Sexual assault support services

There are, understandably, few places where women feel more vulnerable than in sexual assault support services. A few years ago, trans women were almost always excluded from such spaces, but in recent years organisations like Rape Crisis Scotland have welcomed them, recognising that they can need help just as much as other women. This means that changes to gender recognition will make no difference to the possibility of encountering a trans woman in such spaces. None of these organisations have reported problems as a result of extending support to trans women.

Gynaecology

Some people worry that gender recognition will mean that men pretending to be women will suddenly start being employed by NHS Scotland to provide intimate women’s services. In fact, the NHS has employed trans women in gynaecology wards for years. It has also employed men. Most patients don’t have a problem with this because all they want is a professional service. If they feel uncomfortable about it, for any reason, they will normally be offered an appointment with somebody else, because everybody recognises patient well-being as a priority. This is the case even when, as is sadly often the case, a patient objects to being treated by a black or Muslim health professional.

Women-only shortlists

If trans women don’t pose a physical risk to other women, is there still a danger that they will take up spaces on lists intended to help women make progress, e.g. in politics? Again, most organisations that run such lists – including the Labour Party, which is currently at the centre of a media storm over this – have included trans women for years, so nothing is going to change. They see trans women as being vulnerable to the same discrimination as other women. In fact, trans women face additional barriers on top of those affecting women more generally – transphobic discrimination in employment is commonplace and a recent Stonewall survey found that a shocking one in eight trans people have been physically assaulted at work.

So what do the proposed changes mean?

In fact, all the proposed changes to gender recognition mean is that the bureaucracy of changing legal gender will be simpler (there will still be plenty of paperwork to put off anybody who’s not serious about it). They will mean that trans people, like other people, are recognised as better placed to recognise their own gender than anyone else. The system will be more accessible to people from all class backgrounds, and easier access to identity documents that match their appearance will help protect people from discrimination. For the vast majority of non-trans people, it will make no difference to anything.

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AngryAttackKittens · 29/01/2018 16:03

Or this person, who used to sit on a trans support committee in Canada.

The fact that this person often wears dresses does not mean that I would feel any safer if I was getting changed into a swimsuit at the pool and they walked in. Legally, in Canada and parts of the US, they have every right to do that and if I complained I would be the one asked to leave.

Do you want that to happen in the UK too? Because if self-id goes through, it will.

AngryAttackKittens · 29/01/2018 16:04

Is asking me to use a cubicle if I'm uncomfortable changing with the person above reasonable? What if I was a 12 year old girl rather than an adult woman?

AngryAttackKittens · 29/01/2018 16:09

A youth swim team were told that they had to use a smaller space in order to leave the main space accessible to the person in this story after the person made a stink about initially being asked to leave a women's sauna in which they were sitting naked with their legs open. Is that reasonable? Would you be OK with that happening in the UK too? Are the girls bigots for being uncomfortable changing in front of this person.

www.kiro7.com/news/transgender-woman-told-leave-womens-locker-room/246633184

slightlybefuddledlibrarian · 29/01/2018 16:21

Stefonknee is seriously fucking scary. Her ‘adopted mummy and daddy’ let her play with their grandchildren. Real life 9yo girl trapped colouring with a fat dude with pigtails and a dummy.

AngryAttackKittens · 29/01/2018 16:28

If I am scared of someone like Stefonknee when they walk into a space in which I'm vulnerable and potentially naked, am I a bigot? Am I guilty of a hate crime if I complain? Is leaving (if that's an option) a sign that I hate transsexuals?

stoneagefertilitydoll · 29/01/2018 16:39

I've been in many changing rooms but have never seen ones that don't have several cubicles in addition to communal spaces. I can see that were there no cubicles this scenario would be possible, but I think in reality there would be practical ways of managing it.

Yeah, but if I'm swimming, I likely have a couple of kids with me. This leaves me hoping for a family cubicle to be free, or just getting changed out on the benches. Same for my kids, same for lots of parents with their kids. Now while I'm doing that among other harassed mothers, it's just something I get on with. If I was doing it around blokes, well, I wouldn't. I would just wait for that family changing - it would significantly inconvenience me and the kids, to the extent that I would probably stop using that pool.

Why is it when there's a thread about men taking their daughters into the mens, it's horror at the idea of the little girl being exposed to naked men and their penises, but when those penises are in the women's it's suddenly OK?

UpstartCrow · 29/01/2018 16:41

What would Social Services do if a parent kept taking their daughter into mens toilets and changing rooms? Would it be seen as an issue?

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 29/01/2018 16:43

I would probably stop using that pool

This is the likeliest outcome all round. Women and children will just quietly stop using facilities that are meant to be theirs, and public space will belong to adult males even more thoroughly than it already does Sad

SchrodingersFrilledLizard · 29/01/2018 16:44

Late to the party but - TransHobbit, thank you for your thoughtful posts. I hope to see you around MN more often.

AngryAttackKittens · 29/01/2018 16:46

If the people who think that we're all doing a terrible thing by discussing this as we do on mumsnet truly believe that we ought to be obligated to share spaces with people like those I posted above, I want them to come right out and say so, so that we can actually discuss that. If not, and they're working on the assumption that people like those above won't end up in women's spaces if self-id comes in, then I'd like to know how they think we're going to go about keeping them out, or how they think the law as proposed will do so.

Geronimoleapinglizards · 29/01/2018 16:57

#transgirl on Twitter is making my want to bleach my own eyeballs. I hadn't looked at that before

2018username · 29/01/2018 17:01

My twitter experience is better than yours, I just stumbled across a women describing our favourite person as a 'dreary, dopey parrot in blue lipstick you would dread sitting next to at the works do' I love Women!

Seafoodeatit · 29/01/2018 17:08

AngryAttackKittens that women make you a terfy bigot and ageist too for saying that 10 year old looks like an adult.... Seriously though,this whole thing has gotten so bloody messed up that there is no real way to reason or argue logically with such batshittery.

More people need to stick their necks out and point out that the emperors stark bollock naked and that he does not possess a lady penis, just a regular one like every other man and no pointing it out is not literally killing someone, claiming you can see said magical powers of being a woman because you say so doesn't make you enlightened, it makes you look pathetic at best and gleefully complicit in screwing over women at worst.

Bloody hell am I pissed off today!

AngryAttackKittens · 29/01/2018 17:13

I'm tired of this discussion being redirected to old school transsexuals. Let's talk about the issue that most women are actually most worried about.

No more dodging the question. If self-ID goes through all of the people above will legally be women if they can be bothered to fill in a form, and all of them will be allowed to access any women's sex segregated space they like. Are you OK with that, and are you saying that we should be too? If you are not OK with that, how do you propose that we avoid it?

Is a woman anyone who says they're a woman or not?

AngryAttackKittens · 29/01/2018 17:15

Oh, also - I am under 5ft3 and biologically female. Stefoknee is about a foot taller, with male-typical upper body strength, hand and foot size, etc. If both Stefonknee and I were young people, would it be reasonable to expect us to compete against each other in sporting events? If not, why not?

Is a woman anyone who says they're a woman? How far are you willing to push this?

Datun · 29/01/2018 17:25

TransHobbit

I was going to ask you a question about your quest that we need to legally separate transsexuals from AGP individuals. Which I agree with.

Because, if only 1% of trans people have a GRC, but 92% of applicants are granted one, it would appear that the reason why very few people have one is because they don't apply in the first place.

Which might be significant, in terms of the two different types of transwomen.

The criteria for gaining a GRC, for instance. You have to be over 18, live as a woman and have a diagnosis of gender dysphoria.

I would imagine it's pretty much a bit of a shoe in for someone with genuine gender dysphoria.

They would welcome a diagnosis or, if distressing enough, presumably would have been given a diagnosis?

And they would already be presenting as a woman to alleviate symptoms.

The rest is paperwork, and a fee, which you pointed out can be waived.

I can readily understand, of course, that actually coming out might be a barrier in the first place.

What I'm trying to say is that getting a GRC for someone with genuine gender dysphoria seems a very logical process and merely an extension of how they are living anyway.

Can we conclude from that, that most men with a certificate, are genuine transsexuals?

Men with AGP, may not want to get a certificate, because the criteria does not correlate with their lifestyle and doesn't accommodate those who cross dress part time.

So strengthening, not eliminating, the criteria around getting a certificate would, in effect, make a distinction between AGP individuals and transsexuals?

I realise of course, that this doesn't address the issue with the equality act.

But forcing a distinction by using the criteria for a GRC might go some way to alerting people to the difference.

The other question I had, which is perhaps a personal one and of course please don't answer if it's intrusive, is whether you were ever asked searching questions to make sure you are genuinely suffering from gender dysphoria, not having a fetish?

Again, I realise, it may not have been necessary, purely on the basis of how you expressed yourself.

Jaxhog · 29/01/2018 17:27

I think the primary concern is that the change in law will open the flood gates to men masquerading as transwomen in order to gain access to female spaces and lists they are currently excluded from for the safety of women. We can't actually tell if someone is genuinely transgender or just masquerading as such, so cannot assess the risk unless we know the person in question. While transwomen have to be assessed by a professional who can tell the difference, the risk is small. But once they don't, the risk goes from small to unknown - potentially great.

I really don't think this change has been properly thought through and worry that once the flood gates are open, it will be impossible to close them again. It seems extraordinary that one groups' so called 'rights' are considered more important than the 'rights' of an existing group who still need them.

TransHobbit · 29/01/2018 17:31

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Datun · 29/01/2018 17:40

I really don't think this change has been properly thought through and worry that once the flood gates are open, it will be impossible to close them again.

When Maria Miller initially consulted on her, subsequently published, transgender equality report, she was indeed told what would happen.

The prison service submitted evidence to say they had every reason to believe men would fake transgenderism to gain access to the female estate.

It was ignored.

Action for trans health, who promoted violence against the women at speakers corner, also submitted evidence.

Which was taken on board. They have subsequently written a manifesto.

Their manifesto includes the immediate release of all trans prisoners, teaching tranwomen how to do surgery so they can operate on each other (or, you know, become a doctor, which is the preferred process in the rest of the world) and making hormones available over-the-counter.

Maria Miller said that any and all objections had only come from women 'purporting to be feminists'.

I almost don't have words to describe how stupid and unworldly you would have to be to have written that report.

Ignoring evidence from the prison service, not allowing evidence from women, and taking on board evidence from crazy man.

It's 98 pages long, and autogynephilia is not only not addressed, it's not even mentioned.

Whatever faith I had in our political system, and it was already scant, absolutely died a death that day.

Particularly as Maria Miller was head of the women and equalities committee.

AngryAttackKittens · 29/01/2018 17:42

I almost don't have words to describe how stupid and unworldly you would have to be to have written that report.

And that's exactly why I think that there has to be something else behind the political support for this stuff, because nobody that stupid could become an MP. Or indeed tie their own shoelaces.

Datun · 29/01/2018 17:43

A tiny % of transfolk apply for a GRC, and it’s usually the ones guaranteed to get it.

On what basis are they guaranteed?

Is it purely on the basis that they bother to apply? Or is it the that the ones who apply are more genuine?

TransHobbit · 29/01/2018 17:47

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

mummybear701 · 29/01/2018 17:50

On the specific issue of prisons I found 2 facts recently. One that a man thought to have transitioned to make offending easier would not get transferred. Goodness knows what happened with Jessica but this seems a failing to use that exception. More surprisingly that even a woman born female could be held in a male prison or secure unit (likely found in a male prison) if thought to pose a danger to women and girls.

If people are concerned a change in the law could leave them more open to accusations of transphobia/hate crime around toilets/changing rooms etc. those are the sort of things the consultation will want to hear so they get proper consideration.

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TransHobbit · 29/01/2018 17:53

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

AngryAttackKittens · 29/01/2018 17:54

@mummybear, there is literally not a single thing that you just said which is true or correct. Not sure if you're reading complete nonsense or just making stuff up as you go along.

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