Why DO people 'believe' transwomen are women?

[AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth]

Actually why?

Because the act of 'believing' without evidence or logic is cult like ideology to me.

The repetition of 'transwomen ARE women' on twitter, facebook etc is like a mantra of a cult. Like repeating the rosary or something, and the more that it repeated, the more people double down in their thinking.

I really feel bewildered half the time now.

It feels like a cult

Like a cult or religion, I guess people are free to believe what they want.

But we are not forced to believe other people's religious beliefs; why are we being forced to believe that 'transwomen are women' and 'transmen are men', when there is no objective, material truth in that statement

It's the new Reformation, but logical thinkers, not Catholics, are being hounded out and targetted.

It's mind blowing

Billy, to be clear, I am talking about the TRAs.

I know there are hundreds of transexuals out there just trying to get on with life. And plenty of them are allies and horrified by what’s going on.

But yes there are hordes of men doing this for fun/attention/sexual gratification.

As I said upthread, #transgirl is an eye opener.

I don't judge men by the ravings of MRA.

Maybe Im old fashioned, it just seems such a difficult way to choose to live your life. I work with a transwoman and she is so isolated and seems so unhappy. It breaks my heart.

As soon as there is any acknowledgement that there should be some limits to the phrase (whether to the meaning of “transwomen” or to the extent to which they are considered “a woman” in law or everyday life) the whole phrase becomes utterly meaningless. And the absurdity of refusing to engage in any debate (“#nodebate”) becomes clear.

Agree. And many activists know this. So they will just chant it like a cult mantra. Because they know any wavering or exceptions will a) expose their position as false and bring down the whole house of cards, and b) potentially expose them to aggression from transactivists and other trans allies. I find committed trans allies are worst than transactivists for mindlessly bleating "transwomen are women", and that is the reason why I think.

Are the 'lady boys' of Thailand considered to be the same as uk type male trans people?

Maybe Im old fashioned, it just seems such a difficult way to choose to live your life. I work with a transwoman and she is so isolated and seems so unhappy. It breaks my heart.

Have you considered that it might be part of a pattern of mental health issues and self destructive behaviour? Why are their issues anyone else's responsibility? Sorry If you think that's cold. I do have sympathy, but most MTFs don't have much for me.

Thai ladyboys are analogous to a certain extent to what trans woman meant in the UK 20 years ago. They're in no way analogous to what it means now.

Its not my responsibility, shes never asked for anything but I know how people react, I know she spent Christmas alone and I knew her as a man when her life seemed so much easier from the outside.

There is so much hate on this thread, I am going to go and empty the dishwasher.

BillyWilliamV

Have you looked at #transgirl?

Do you understand there are hoardes of men with autogenephilia? They get off by imagining they have a female body
Do you understand there are also hoardes of men, who hate women and have jumped on the trans trend specifically because they want to subsume women? Better still murder them.

Of course there are hundreds of decent transwomen just living their lives.

Hmm, I'm generally uncomfortable with the tone and content of this whole discussion for reasons I can't express. But an interesting question has come out of it for me:

If you were obliged to define "women" but we're not allowed to resort to biology, how would you do it?

Given that women can make whatever choices they like and live any lifestyle they choose I would have to define them by what society places on them that is specific to their being women. So greater discrimination and underrepresentation in higher positions in the workplace. Greater scrutiny over appearance and a more sexualised norm of acceptable presentation. More likely to suffer violence and sexual assaults. Generally lower paid, achievements less recognised or celebrated etc.

Thinking about it if you defined "men" in similar terms, trans women would certainly have more in common with the definition of women than of men, wouldn't they? So perhaps ignoring biology in your definition is what you're all failing to do, I don't know.

Honestly it's not my area, but that's my feeling on the subject. I also get the impression many of you are basing your feelings on particularly individuals from this group who you find abhorrent. There are abhorrent individuals in all groups, and they often shout the loudest.

False hypothetical. Biology is how we define what sex people are. We're mammals, not floating brains in jars.

You've tried to frame the question to yield the answer that you're most comfortable with, basically. It's dishonest.

Rat that's a very interesting stab at answering the question. But it does lead (in my mind at least) to the natural next question: why has this group of people been treated this way, to a greater or lesser degree, across all human societies and at all times in history. What's been driving that? If you're allowed to reference biology, the answer becomes pretty obvious (and so do the reasons for specific women's rights over and above the human rights we all share). But without reference to biology, each instance of the group called "women" finding themselves at the bottom of the pile becomes an accidental, historically and culturally contingent fact... but one which, mysteriously, has repeated itself over and over and over again.

"Hmm, I'm generally uncomfortable with the tone and content of this whole discussion for reasons I can't express." Could you try? I feel the same-but I have come to the point of thinking that it is because I am a socially liberal "right on" sort of person (for want of a better description) and this is the first time I find myself being thought of/described as on the "wrong" side of values that are important to me. I don't believe I am -but it's still a very uncomfortable place to be.

Billy
If your friend and colleague is just trying to quietly live their life, she is a decent human and transwomen. There are very few people on this thread, who would object to this or would choose to deny her choice or hate her.

The hate you see is not for your friend. It is pain and upset that we as women are being drawn into a war where we risk annihilation.

According to TRA’s. I’m not a woman. I’m a cis woman. TRA’s are women. I’m defective. Their arses are their vaginas. I have a front hole. If I do not subscribe to this then I am a TERF. Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist. They use this term for women and rarely for men. Despite claiming to be a woman, they threaten women and transwomen with these views with violence and rape with their “lady dick”.

See the picture. That’s what they think of me. They want me obliterated and in their “defence”when no defends is needed, they attack women like me saying we hate them and want them dead. Hyperbole.

Actually Angry biology is how you frame the question when you want the answer to yield a biological distinction. If you split the room down what we know to be biologically men and women and see what else the groups have in common you can arrive at other non-biological commonalities for the same groups. I know you don't want to hear it.

Speaking from my own experience, the only transwomen I know are definitely now women.
I figure that what genitals someone has is none of my business unless they are likely to come into contact with mine.
Yes, I am in favour of "women only" spaces, safe for women, but the people I know meet this definition, and would therefore respect those spaces.
Maybe it's because they're also pagan?

Woman has always meant adult human female. If you want society to shift to an alternate definition then it's up to you to make a case for that, because you're the ones who're demanding a change.

"So greater discrimination and underrepresentation in higher positions in the workplace. Greater scrutiny over appearance and a more sexualised norm of acceptable presentation. More likely to suffer violence and sexual assaults. Generally lower paid, achievements less recognised or celebrated etc."

Rat, is that your definition of a women? Do you have any evidence that MIT fit thus definition?

“ I know you don't want to hear it.”

I absolutely want to hear it. I have been searching for non biological definitions ever since I became aware of this issue. I haven’t yet come across any that do not involve stereotypes. Can you say more?

So greater discrimination and underrepresentation in higher positions in the workplace. Greater scrutiny over appearance and a more sexualised norm of acceptable presentation. More likely to suffer violence and sexual assaults. Generally lower paid, achievements less recognised or celebrated etc.

Whilst I agree with that is generally the way women are treated. It's still not the definition of the word woman. Because you will still have women who don't have that experience and you will have men who have.

Plus those things are coming from the outside. Constructed by society. And capable of being deconstructed.

Trans'women' are men. Full stop.

Rat it’s interesting that you are seeing hate. I’m seeing fear. Fear that women’s hard won rights to female (XX, penis-free) spaces, and our right even to express our fears about losing these, are being eroded.

A woman is an adult human female. If you want to go all humpty dumpty and insist “woman” means “oppressed underclass”, then women are going to have to find another noun to describe XX-humans.

XX-humans will have to fight all over again for XX-humans’ rights to have penis-free spaces, to ensure that XX-humans’ interests are adequately considered in policymaking, and to ensure that XY-humans don’t (accidentally or otherwise) oppress XX-humans because of their natural physical advantages.

Its not my responsibility, shes never asked for anything but I know how people react

I don't hate MTF people. But don't try to emotionally blackmail me. Lots of people live difficult, isolated lives.

I'm just imagining a group of women in a room because of being women. In my case the women a few years back who together with me brought an equal pay claim against our then employer. Some of us were feminine presenting, some were pretty androgynous, some were pretty butch. Some were in STEM jobs, some were in traditionally "female" roles like HR. Some were high flying managers, some were relatively new appointees at the bottom of the ladder. Some like computer gaming, some liked needlework. Some had children, some didn't ever want to have children.

Even being low-paid wasn't enough to define as women. There were some men in the company who were badly paid. Just proportionately less of them than there were women who were badly paid.

The only thing we had in common was our biology.

We won.

Do you want to link to where it's "always" meant that, in every country, in every language Angry? Because it strikes me that the word is used in many contexts with different emphases (as most words can be), and that if one wanted to say "adult female human" one could just as easily say that.

Bertrand, i don't know, but I trust my unease. I guess it feels a bit like a load of people obsessed with dicks and fannies where the rest of the world doesn't give a shit. I mean am I really as likely to be raped by a transwoman's dick as I am by a man's? Really? Or is it the man with the appendage who's more likely to assault me rather than his body part? I doubt anyone has the stats. And if there's no statistical increase in the threat to me from transwomen, who cares what's in their pants? Except them of course - it means an awful lot to them - but hey, let's beat them round the head with it.

Perhaps it's me, perhaps it's because I hate people publication referencing my genitalia as if it makes any difference to anyone except me and my sexual partners. My womanhood matters in a societal context - it makes me less likely to get a pay rise for a start - but that's not because my boss is obsessed with my fanny.