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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Why DO people 'believe' transwomen are women?

413 replies

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 26/01/2018 12:36

Actually why?

Because the act of 'believing' without evidence or logic is cult like ideology to me.

The repetition of 'transwomen ARE women' on twitter, facebook etc is like a mantra of a cult. Like repeating the rosary or something, and the more that it repeated, the more people double down in their thinking.

I really feel bewildered half the time now.

It feels like a cult

Like a cult or religion, I guess people are free to believe what they want.

But we are not forced to believe other people's religious beliefs; why are we being forced to believe that 'transwomen are women' and 'transmen are men', when there is no objective, material truth in that statement

It's the new Reformation, but logical thinkers, not Catholics, are being hounded out and targetted.

It's mind blowing

OP posts:
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LapdanceShoeshine · 26/01/2018 19:39

@UpstartCrow the private stall mentioned is in a girls’ changing room in a US high school!

(It helps to read links before commenting...)

UpstartCrow · 26/01/2018 19:41

Its a 'question' commonly asked by MRA's. And my suggested responses stand, thanks anyway.

LapdanceShoeshine · 26/01/2018 19:44

Yes, in the context of women’s toilets they do

Not in the context of what I posted

LapdanceShoeshine · 26/01/2018 19:45

It’s hard when you’re on the same side & still get knocked back

FFS

lizzieoak · 26/01/2018 19:52

Re why a private stall is not enough - because I feel unsafe knowing that a man can come in and no-one outside the toilets will turn a hair. I rely on other women — and men - noticing if a man enters and reporting it. Because often public loos (if near empty) give me the creeps anyway because sitting with your pants around your ankles makes you vulnerable, so I would vastly prefer if self-identifying was not enough to allow men to enter what should be a woman’s safe space. If a man has had medical certification and lived fully as a woman for some time, then talk to me.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 26/01/2018 19:55

Poor lapdance was trying to ask why a private stall wasnt good enough for the transwoman

Why were they insisting on being in a communual ladies toilet

UpstartCrow · 26/01/2018 19:56

Sorry lapdance, I didnt understand.

LapdanceShoeshine · 26/01/2018 19:59

Thanks, Rufus Smile

(Though it wasn’t a toilet, was a high school changing room! Adult 18-year-old transwoman not satisfied with separate cubicle near girls’ changing room - was demanding to be in there with them)

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 26/01/2018 20:02

No worries lapdance

I had a heated debate with a poster a while back and since i had spent the entire thread agreeing with them i couldnt figure out why they were so annoyed with me Grin

They misread a post, its so easily done

MyNameIsInigoMantoya · 26/01/2018 20:44

Descartes has to take some of the blame. Transwomen are reliant upon the false idea that the mind and body are distinct entities, otherwise it would be impossible to conceive that someone who has grown up in a man's body could have the mind of a woman.

But that leads us to another misconception - that there is a clearly defined "mind of a woman". This belief is deeply rooted in unscientific gender stereotypes stretching back millenia. For transwomen to be real women, they need both cartesian mind-body duality AND gender stereotyping.

The final misconception is that humans are isolated bubbles who exist largely free of social influence. If there is such a thing as a "mind of a woman" it must not arise as a result of socialisation. If it did, transwomen could not be real women because they're not raised as women from birth.

So, we have two opposing models. One says that women have innately different minds from those of men, but that this is nothing to do with experiencing either the body or socialisation of being a woman. The second says that our minds arise, at least in part, from both our bodies and our socialisation.

It's the second idea that's generally accepted by the scientific community (though there's a lot of debate over whether it is brain / body or socialisation that dominates). However, it's the first that's generally preached by our Anglo-Saxon, neoliberal political philosophy.

Basically, our society teaches a lie: that you can simply choose to be whoever you want to be. It's unscientific, but it's widely accepted. Not surprising as it appease the wishes of many non-trans people too, especially those who wish themselves to be something other than what mainstream society wants them to be. That'll be teenagers rebelling against their upbringing, libertarians railing against Political Correctness and Socialists who are always at war with "the Establishment".

So, why do many people believe transwomen are real women? Because that belief is the inevitable conclusion of a set of values they want to believe are true, even though they're not.

Why do many in the medical community support transition? Because they are not there to judge the beliefs of a person who needs treatment. The current psychiatric philosophy is to make people happy by giving them what they need. It doesn't matter whether or not transwomen actually are women, all that matters is that they have a way of reducing their suffering. Note that the thrust of scientific inquiry is not an attempt to demonstrate that transwomen ARE women, but to find something in their brains that is different from typical men and makes them feel like they should be women. That simple explanation - transwomen have brains that make them feel like women even though they're not - obviously leads to the solution of helping them feel like they actually are women, even though they're not.

But anyway, medics at the chalk face follow accepted best practice, even if that best practice is wrong (read up on cot deaths if you want to see how easily a harmful "best practice" can come into being with no scientific justification).

Well, that's what I think. The reason it feels like we're pushing water uphill is because we're fighting a belief system much bigger than trans ideology. It's the same ideology behind the American Dream, behind modern neoliberal economics, behind the MRA movement, Brexit and Trump. It's Neitzche via Ayn Rand - the will to succeed makes anything possible, is an end in of itself, and will inevitably lead to self-justifying success. And anyone who doesn't have that will to succeed? It's fine to screw them over because they're on the wrong side of history.

LapdanceShoeshine · 26/01/2018 21:12

Another one from Chicago - this one is “trans-age” - “boy trapped in man’s body”

Hmm

www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-web-sexual-assault-case-denied-bail-20180124-story.html

TheBrilliantMistake · 26/01/2018 21:37

More like 'abuser in transition to jail'

lizzieoak · 26/01/2018 21:54

Sorry lapdance, should not read in a rush (me I mean).

DonkeySkin · 27/01/2018 06:33

Great comment, Inigo.

One thing I would take issue with is that I don't think anybody believes 'transwomen' are 'real woman'. The fact that people treat them very differently to actual women shows that. I think it is more accurate to say that people believe they have a legitimate claim to the title of 'woman', partly because they are unconsciously defaulting to an established belief in, as you mentioned, mind-body dualism (in this case the idea that 'feminine' souls can exist in male bodies and vice versa - the 19th C idea of 'inverts', transposed to 21st C neuroscience) and also because of the valorising of the primacy of individual will, 'the Hero's Journey', etc.

However, one thing I find interesting about this is how narrow the definition of 'femininity' is WRT to trans-identified males. In every culture, the female sex role is primarily defined not by liking make-up and high heels, but by the expectation that women should nurture others and put their needs before their own. The feminine things that TIMs generally take an interest in revolve around the symbols of femininity, not the actual female sex role, which is about taking care of others. Even very strong-minded and independent women are encultured into this to an astonishing degree - can you imagine a similar site called 'Dadsnet' where men spend hours each week participating in thousands of threads on the minutiae of housework and child care, and every conceivable aspect of taking care of others?

I find it telling that the majority of TIMs (both heterosexual and homosexual) display zero affinity for this aspect of femininity - and no one expects them to. Nobody notices that their claims to 'feel feminine' never encompass an interest in the boring, non-sexualised parts of femininity like housework, child care, elder care and and doing emotional labour for others.

So I would say that the 'trans women (have the right to claim to be) women' belief also springs from other, very old cultural beliefs, such as that women are basically defective men (Aristotle's claim), and that a defining aspect of womanhood is that we aren't supposed to have any self-determined boundaries, but should make our whole selves (including our ontological existence) open to men if men want it.

thebewilderness · 27/01/2018 07:21

They don't believe it but some submit because male violence is the greatest human rights crisis the world has ever known and they are afraid to say no.
Others will pretend to believe the latest trend because of self interest.
Some see it as an opportunity to drive women out of the public sphere. Something they have wanted to do for a very long time.
Some feign belief as a virtue signal just like claiming to be Christian. Some think that the person believes they are transformed and transitioned and do not see the harm in going along with it.
A lot of time and effort has gone into convincing the public that transgender people have been cruelly treated and are murdered at enormously high rates. It isn't true but it has been said so many times and published in the news so many times that it has become conventional wisdom in spite of it being a lie.
My friend Rachel explained to me that what is going on right now in the general public is called “pluralistic ignorance”. In social psychology, pluralistic ignorance is a situation in which a majority of group members privately reject a norm, but incorrectly assume that most others accept it, and therefore go along with it.

AngryAttackKittens · 27/01/2018 07:28

Basically, if trans women have ladybrains, why don't they act like women generally do? Which they don't. Even the "nice" ones generally have a tendency to center themselves that's socialized out of women at an early age.

The idea that there are men and then there are defective non-men was perfectly summed up by that idiotic tweet from the Greens. It's always amazing to me when women repeat this stuff without realizing how misogynistic it is.

(Or, shorter What DonkeySkin Said.)

AngryAttackKittens · 27/01/2018 07:34

Also, in relation to Lapdance's links, the refusal to accept third space options when offered was probably the last nail in the coffin for me in terms of willingness to try to find some sort of compromise. The compromise has been offered and consistently rejected. We tried.

BigDeskBob · 27/01/2018 08:21

"Even the "nice" ones generally have a tendency to center themselves that's socialized out of women at an early age. "

Exactly. Even on mumsnet, how many times have MIT come onto feminist threads to talk about their feelings and experiences, derailing the thread and making themselves to centre of attention.

AngryAttackKittens · 27/01/2018 08:24

Hopefully over time people will learn to spot the pattern quickly and stop giving them the validation and attention they're looking for.

BertrandRussell · 27/01/2018 08:30

There is a school of thought among some transwomen that they are "evolved" women - the next step so to speak.

AnachronisticCorpse · 27/01/2018 08:54

Yes, I’ve said this before. It’s a very male-socialised attitude to expect the women to budge up out of the way to accommodate them, and it’s the reason for the utter rage when some of us speak out. Because we are being uppity and unfemale.

They don’t ‘feel’ like women at all. They just want to wear lipstick and dresses while swinging their bollocks around and demanding things. Because they can do womanning better than we can, you see.

AngryAttackKittens · 27/01/2018 08:59

Even when you can't see them and have no other clues the behavior is an instant tell for maleness. And then they're confused as to how we knew when we couldn't see them.

We've been dealing with overbearing men our whole lives, guys, this is not new to us.

BillywilliamV · 27/01/2018 09:08

Do you actually know any transwoman, just trying to live their lives? Maybe coping with male colleagues who are totally disgusted by them, estranged from their families? Knowing that they look horrendous by any "normal" standards but still having to try because life is unbearable otherwise. Do you really believe that there are hoardes of men doing this for fun? Because they get a kick out of pissing in the girl's loos?

BertrandRussell · 27/01/2018 09:12

"Do you actually know any transwoman, just trying to live their lives?"

Yes, I do.

AngryAttackKittens · 27/01/2018 09:14

Yep.