Why DO people 'believe' transwomen are women?

[AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth]

Actually why?

Because the act of 'believing' without evidence or logic is cult like ideology to me.

The repetition of 'transwomen ARE women' on twitter, facebook etc is like a mantra of a cult. Like repeating the rosary or something, and the more that it repeated, the more people double down in their thinking.

I really feel bewildered half the time now.

It feels like a cult

Like a cult or religion, I guess people are free to believe what they want.

But we are not forced to believe other people's religious beliefs; why are we being forced to believe that 'transwomen are women' and 'transmen are men', when there is no objective, material truth in that statement

It's the new Reformation, but logical thinkers, not Catholics, are being hounded out and targetted.

It's mind blowing

Do you actually know any transwoman, just trying to live their lives?

Yes, three. They all oppose self-ID. Next?

It's not just about safety, though Rat. It's also about women's privacy, dignity and boundaries. Why is that not an issue?

Rat it’s interesting that you are seeing hate. I’m seeing fear

YY, I'm definitely seeing fear, but one is frequently the birth of the other. And not all fear is reasonable. I'm scared too. I'm scared my children will reject the bodies I grew for them and love with all my being, but I'm trying to see if really that's a justification to define other people's life experiences. I'm finding it's not.

BillyWilliam - I'm sorry your colleague is so unhappy. But that doesn't mean they're a woman, which is what this thread is about. You agree with the majority on this thread - your colleague may not fit comfortably into the male box any more but they're not in the female one either.

Women are oppressed and cut and raped because of our biology. And thinking you can identify out of that is a luxury that many women don't have.

And I've never met a single TIM who passed and I know quite a few

It's about teaching a whole generation of girls that their boundaries don't matter.

It is an issue Eresh but not all women share the same sense of what is dignified, clearly, and we can only do what is reasonable. If everyone else feels dignified in a situation but one does not, what do you do?

Do your own research, Rat. Like I said, you're the one trying to shift the definition so you're the one who needs to demonstrate why that shift ought to happen.

I've lived on 4 different continents and people have known that a woman is an adult human female on all of them. Some cultures have a special social category for effeminate men, but nobody in those cultures is under any illusions about the sex of the men who exist within that category. When people in Thailand say woman, they mean the kind with a uterus and ovaries.

“Thinking about it if you defined "men" in similar terms, trans women would certainly have more in common with the definition of women than of men, wouldn't they? So perhaps ignoring biology in your definition is what you're all failing to do, I don't know.”

One of the things I find difficult is the fact that transwomen are characterized as marginalized and discriminated against while simultaneously pushing through, virtually unchallenged and incredibly quickly, one of the most supignificant social changes of all time. As I have said before, the use of the title ‘Ms” is still far from established 40 years on, but I bet if a TRA wanted to be called Ms she would be instantly...

It never occurred to me trans women aren't women until I joined mumsnet. I just accepted that they should live and be regarded as a woman. I still believe in the whole live and let live ethos. Could go back and forward all day along about whether they are woman or not, which is how these threads always goes

It's about teaching a whole generation of girls that their boundaries don't matter.

It's about teaching them they penisis are just flesh and blood and not to be afraid of, and it's the people wielding them that count.

They're standing on the shoulders of giants though Bertrand, those giants being feminists. Should we be embittered by that?

Unfortunately there will always be women and girls who aren't comfortable being exposed to strange men, can you think a little about them for once?

Or is it the man with the appendage who's more likely to assault me rather than his body part? I doubt anyone has the stats.

Not sure what you mean by stats.

But transwomen commit sexual and violent crime at exactly the same, in fact slightly more, rate then natal men.

Of the transwomen who are in prison, almost half are there for sex offences.

fairplayforwomen.com/prisons/transgender-prisoners

Men commit 98% of all sexually violent crime. This is not altered by transition.

Are the 'lady boys' of Thailand considered to be the same as uk type male trans people?

No they're not. The huge number of ladyboys is partly driven by the sex industry in Thailand.

Also they don't think they're women. The idea of them being women would be ludicrous. The ladyboys may look like women but they know they're effeminate men and they act like men in terms of the freedoms they enjoy. To really act like a woman in Thai society would be to live a much less free life. Funnily enough Thai TIMs are not campaigning for that or stamping their feet demanding they are accepted as women.

Transgender is a cultural phenomenon hugely influenced by the social context.

Violating women's boundaries is a huge red flag for sexual assault and abuse. How are women and girls supposed to tell who is going to harm them?

Women and girls shouldn't have to be shaking in terror in order to justify why we don't want to get undressed in front of men. If most women would prefer privacy in spaces where nudity is to be expected then the fact that we prefer that should be enough.

Have any of you who think that women shouldn't be allowed boundaries ever read The Gift of Fear?

Women and girls shouldn't have to be shaking in terror in order to justify why we don't want to get undressed in front of men. If most women would prefer privacy in spaces where nudity is to be expected then the fact that we prefer that should be enough.

This 100%. This complete disregard for women's feelings while rushing to validate the feelings of males never fails to enrage me. It's really quite stark.

We define ourselves by our biology because thats the definition of 'woman'.

We need to do that because we are the ones that menstruate and can get pregnant.
Menstruating and being the ones that gestate means we have specific needs.
Those needs include understanding our own fertility, menstruation, and the diseases we are prone to.

To understand the issues, girls and women need to be able to talk about them without being shamed or silenced.

It's the combination of self-ID and the idea that it's inappropriate to question someone who may be trans about their gender that raises the biggest red flags in terms of what The Gift of Fear covers. If that becomes the norm then you've created an environment where a woman or girl who has that hair standing up on the back of the neck feeling knows that she's not supposed to say anything about it and may be shamed as a bigot if she does. That's not an acceptable situation to be putting women and girls in.

I mean am I really as likely to be raped by a transwoman's dick as I am by a man's? Really? Or is it the man with the appendage who's more likely to assault me rather than his body part? I doubt anyone has the stats.

Well, cross dressing is the most common paraphilia in sex offenders, so...

“They're standing on the shoulders of giants though Bertrand, those giants being feminists. Should we be embittered by that?”

I don’t understand that.

Absolutely agree. We are trying to train girls to ignore their instincts. In the Gift of Fear he shows how that is easily taken advantage of.

I mean am I really as likely to be raped by a transwoman's dick as I am by a man's? Really? Or is it the man with the appendage who's more likely to assault me rather than his body part? I doubt anyone has the stats.

Well, 50% of trans-identified males currently in prison are sex offenders, so...

The belief that someone can magically transition to the opposite sex is most harmful to children - and that's where my 'fear' comes from.
TA pressure groups have actively targeted education, 'normalising' the taking of drugs by children below he age of consent to stop puberty, misusing suicide statistics, undermining basic safeguarding principles and laying down definitions of transphobia that silence teenagers and adults from expressing legitimate concerns about any of this.
I am fearful that pressure groups who wish to change society for their own ends (nothing wrong with that, that's what all pressure groups do) have been allowed privileged access to schools and are rewriting policies in defiance of existing equality laws that are doing actual harm to vulnerable children.
That scares me - and it should anyone who opposes unregistered medical experimentation on children.