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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Why DO people 'believe' transwomen are women?

413 replies

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 26/01/2018 12:36

Actually why?

Because the act of 'believing' without evidence or logic is cult like ideology to me.

The repetition of 'transwomen ARE women' on twitter, facebook etc is like a mantra of a cult. Like repeating the rosary or something, and the more that it repeated, the more people double down in their thinking.

I really feel bewildered half the time now.

It feels like a cult

Like a cult or religion, I guess people are free to believe what they want.

But we are not forced to believe other people's religious beliefs; why are we being forced to believe that 'transwomen are women' and 'transmen are men', when there is no objective, material truth in that statement

It's the new Reformation, but logical thinkers, not Catholics, are being hounded out and targetted.

It's mind blowing

OP posts:
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Elsie2791 · 27/01/2018 14:27

The last thing women need is other women telling them they are being precious for wanting a woman to administer a smear test, or a woman only hospital ward.

Which I haven't done.

Neither is telling those women to get over themselves, or leave their culture.

Which I haven't done. I've said that you are supporting the oppression of women in the name of religion, because you are. To try to win arguments about stuff I've never actually said.

When you are so entrenched in your own ideology that you are prepared to erase The Equality Act, you dont also get to make yourself the arbiter of human rights

Which I haven't done, I've pointed out how the Equality Act works in practice. Christian bakers can't refuse to make cakes for gay weddings. That's fact. Would you prefer it otherwise?

"Women volunteer in outreach programs to teach refugees English, maths, and basic skills so they can participate in public life. Some of those volunteers can only be women.
Telling them to get over their religion is not how change happens."

Which I haven't done. I've pointed out you are supporting oppression of women in the name of religion. Because you are. Because you think it helps you win an argument.

I suspect I've actually talked to more muslim women who are suffering the ill effects of their cultural background than you have. Like the time I went with a (muslim) volunteer to visit another muslim woman living in a slum, the landlord of which was able to exploit her because he knew that as a divorced muslim woman she was extremely vulnerable and socially isolated.

There is, nothing less feminist IMO than justifying the oppression of women with 'well that's their culture'.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 27/01/2018 14:28

I always think that if people are resorting to twisting words they have given up on actually debating

UpstartCrow · 27/01/2018 14:29

If you genuinely want change for minority women you have to enable it to happen. Not just demand they change to suit your agenda.

guardianfree · 27/01/2018 14:30

There was one unisex toilet - it had its own door and was entirely self contained. But some clients still complained that weren't male and female toilets. Didn't stop most of them using it though
and
And how many women remove their hijab to pee anyway? Last time I checked they were worn on the head

Ah Elsie - such a give away!!!...Grin
Surely your cake must need icing by now?

Elsie2791 · 27/01/2018 14:31

You've still not explained BTW, why you need to remove a hijab outside a toilet cubicle to pee, but that's by the bypass really.

Anyway, this argument is - as I suspected - pointless. I've answered the question put, which is a very good one, and hoped that perhaps a sensible discussion could be had. I'm not saying that hasn't happened, but clearly some things are such an article of faith that some other commentators are determined to cling to their positions come what may. And I was meant to be painting a floor several hours ago. I don't ice cakes.

Elsie2791 · 27/01/2018 14:32

Guardianfree The original argument was that - and I quote 'women can't remove their hijab in the presence of men'.

Elsie2791 · 27/01/2018 14:34

UpstartCrow Sat 27-Jan-18 13:33:50

Toilets are not a distraction if your religion or culture wont let you remove and adjust your headscarf in front of a man. Or use it at all if a man is in there.

Toilets are fundamental to being able to participate in society. Ask anyone in a wheelchair if they are merely a distraction.

Elsie2791 · 27/01/2018 14:34

I rest my case.

AngryAttackKittens · 27/01/2018 14:35
Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 27/01/2018 14:35

Fact

AngryAttackKittens · 27/01/2018 14:36

So anyway maybe the actual discussion can resume now.

UpstartCrow · 27/01/2018 14:39

In Iran, a female protester is missing after removing her headscarf in public.
www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/iran-woman-hijab-missing-waved-defiance-a8174026.html

You demand Muslim women should be able to come to the UK and just abandon their headscarf, because they crossed a border.

It just isnt how you achieve liberation for women.

Elsie2791 · 27/01/2018 14:41

In Iran, a female protester is missing after removing her headscarf in public.
www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/iran-woman-hijab-missing-waved-defiance-a8174026.html

You demand Muslim women should be able to come to the UK and just abandon their headscarf, because they crossed a border."

The UK isn't Iran? She wanted to remove her headscarf because she considers it a symbol of oppression.

Good luck with the discussion/echo chamber.

Elsie2791 · 27/01/2018 14:42

Clearly how we achieve liberation for woman is telling them to just accept their place and never challenge anything. Particularly if they're muslim.

Super. Got it.

TheBrilliantMistake · 27/01/2018 14:43

I can remember a time (partly because of social attitudes then, and partly because of my own peers at a younger age) when being gay was 'odd' - when there was no scientific evidence that being gay was anything other than a choice and 'normal' people felt uncomfortable about the act and the people. That's well before the 'gay disease' headlines appeared!

So we had this situation in society where homosexuals were generally marginalised or rejected, and concern over sharing personal spaces with 'gays' was not unusual.

The same was true of disabled people. They were deemed 'unusual' and segregated in countless ways. Thankfully, we've come a long way since then.

I can absolutely see the parallels with trans people some 50 years later and why sometimes the racial, sexual and disability prejudices are used as an illustration of trans people's current predicament.

A penis is a penis, and nobody should fear it. It's those that own a penis who are (sometimes) to be feared, and that's where (I feel) the issue really lies. Removing the penis doesn't nececcesarily make you any less a penis owner. You've just discarded it, but you arguably still own one.

As stated, I'm not trans, but speak as a man - I cannot see that whatever I did to my body physically, that I would ever truly have the female experience (not that it's one experience, but you get my gist). I think I could enjoy many aspects of feminity and have many of the external and internal experiences they have, but I could never really be them.

All my life I have been a musician, I'm am quite competent, but not world class. I would love to be world class, and would love to play with other world class musicians. If I could enforce the opportunity to play with world class musicians I might be tempted to do so, and I am sure I would improve as a musician in the process, but I would still never be world class, no matter how much inclusion I asked for, no matter how exposed I was to their inner sanctum, I just wasn't born with 'quite' the ability they had despite being very good myself.

Why can't being 'very feminine' be enough?
Can't living life as a woman within the contraints and limitations of reality be enough?
I can live my life as a musician, people would accept my abilities as they are, and I can enjoy all the feelings that music gives me. I just have to accept that I'm not going to be able to experience playing Wembley Stadium, because that's life.

I'm not trying to trivialise this, just trying to understand why there needs to be more and more barriers broken down in order to make a trans feel more real.
All the world cannot be a stage for transpeople.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 27/01/2018 14:43

And no one said that either

Maybe its two different threads

I doubt it angry Grin

AngryAttackKittens · 27/01/2018 14:45

(Sigh) And I was so hopeful too.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 27/01/2018 14:46

Youve always seemed a very positive and optimistic poster angry

I admire that about you Grin

AngryAttackKittens · 27/01/2018 14:49

I'm not trying to trivialise this, just trying to understand why there needs to be more and more barriers broken down in order to make a trans feel more real.

There doesn't. Accepting that you can't always get what you want and other people won't always see you how you'd like them to is just one of those things about life that everyone has to accept sooner or later.

We're not doing trans people any favors in the long run by pretending otherwise, and a lot of other people are being harmed in the process.

mummybear701 · 27/01/2018 14:49

Why do they go to such lengths to get rid of their male anatomy if they were still men at the end of it? Genitals, breasts, facial construction, all requiring hormone treatment before surgery and physical pain, on top of loss of certain family and friends. Then fighting the forces of beaurocracy to get recognised in their new sex. No-one would put themselves through this if they were not 100% certain it was the right thing for them. Some female born women will never agree, but can still show respect and sensitivity.

Cattenberg · 27/01/2018 14:51

I haven't been on MN for very long, but I don't understand the MN obsession with transwomen.

I work with a transwoman, and I don't think about her transition very often. If I do, I think about how hard it must have been for her to feel that she was born in the wrong body and to have to undergo surgery to change it. Surgery that sadly isn't 100% effective. I don't envy my colleague at all - I'm grateful I was never in that situation.

I assume that my colleague uses the ladies' toilets, and that doesn't bother me at all - why would it?

UpstartCrow · 27/01/2018 14:52

Most of them dont make any surgical changes, mummybear701. And they dont have to to obtain a GRC.

No one believes 'trans women are women', but many people support it over womens right to say 'women are women'.

Elsie2791 · 27/01/2018 14:59

Hi Brilliant mistake

"Why can't being 'very feminine' be enough?
Can't living life as a woman within the contraints and limitations of reality be enough?"

For some people, hating their body is very real. I've met people who have had reassignment surgery and it's not something you'd go in for just for fun. My only concern is that a)they're consenting adults and b)they're not doing it under external pressure.

I'd really like to see a society, as I say, that was gender neutral. Not a popular view with some here it seems, but there you go. When we get to a point where a male person can wear a dress and make up and a female person can have cropped hair and wear a three piece trouser suit and no one turns a hair, then perhaps people may feel more comfortable with the bodies they're in and not want to alter them. We don't know because we've never been down that path. I think we currently live in a society in which gender stereotypes are being ever more closely enforced.

The concern currently being expressed - and I think it's very merited is that gender non conforming people, young women particularly, are being pressured into taking testosterone/puberty blockers (if under 16) or having mastectomy because being a trans man is more socially acceptable than being a butch woman.

I agree that's an authentic concern, and it's a very important debate. We have to protect young people from undue pressures. However I don't think that means we can say that no one should ever alter their body if they really want to.

Elsie2791 · 27/01/2018 15:01

I assume that my colleague uses the ladies' toilets, and that doesn't bother me at all - why would it?

I'm afraid Cattenberg, I'm really going to have to leave you to it at that point. Good luck!

Charismam · 27/01/2018 15:02

cattenberg i've worked with not one but two trans women as well, in the insurance industry believe it or not. But neither of them was ever so vocal like the spokespeople are today. I wouldn't have ever presumed to know what they were thinking but I think you can know and like (or dislike) one colleague without being blind to the invasion and erosion of women's boundaries and places that is being made by their spokespeople and movement.