Why DO people 'believe' transwomen are women?

[AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth]

Actually why?

Because the act of 'believing' without evidence or logic is cult like ideology to me.

The repetition of 'transwomen ARE women' on twitter, facebook etc is like a mantra of a cult. Like repeating the rosary or something, and the more that it repeated, the more people double down in their thinking.

I really feel bewildered half the time now.

It feels like a cult

Like a cult or religion, I guess people are free to believe what they want.

But we are not forced to believe other people's religious beliefs; why are we being forced to believe that 'transwomen are women' and 'transmen are men', when there is no objective, material truth in that statement

It's the new Reformation, but logical thinkers, not Catholics, are being hounded out and targetted.

It's mind blowing

Trans men in men's shelters and prisons I mean. Nope, never, incredibly unsafe.

hey frequently have one unisex loo these days

Oh dont be silly

“Absolutely, have you noticed how accessible toilets are usually unisex?”

Yes. They are single occupancy cubicles with sinks, floor to ceiling doors and no common areas.

And what rufus said

Religion is a protected characteristic.

Trans rights sound more like a white male supremacy movement with every comment.

I guess Muslim women can just hold it in until after the revolution, huh?

Link

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-28713123

*This is something that should absolutely be addressed. Along with cottaging.

CCTV in men's toilets, maybe? *

I'm not sure how common cottaging is these days (after all we have Grindr now), but as long as they're consenting adults, I don't care what gay men do. But if you do want to stop it, (I can see it might be a problem for other toilet users, [particularly if they're in a cubicle for ages, we've all been in THAT queue in a nightclub) again unisex secure toilets is the way to go.

CCTV is all over shops and shopping centres, didn't stop these boys being attacked horribly. You can't CCTV someone on the toilet.

"Trans rights sound more like a white male supremacy movement with every comment"

Well a)I'm not an advocate for trans rights and b)if you don't think a religion that says a woman can't remove her headscarf in the presence of a man is problematic, can I recommend the Handmaid's Tale as a good read/watch?

I guess Muslim women can just hold it in until after the revolution, huh?"

I think this muslim woman would like to have a word with you.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/mar/20/muslim-woman-veil-hijab

"As a practising (though flawed) Shia Muslim, I watch the new puritans with apprehension. So too other Muslims worldwide, the silent many, watch and tremble. From the eighth to the early 20th century, Muslims strove for a broad education (as commanded in the Qur’an), questioned doctrines, and were passionate about scientific advancements, political and social ideals and art. Not even humiliating colonial rule deterred them from the march forward. Now the marchers are walking backwards. The hijab, jilbab, burqa and niqab are visible signs of this retreat from progressive values."

Religion is a protected characteristic

So you think Christian bakers should be able to refuse to make cakes for gay weddings then?

Sexual orientation is also a protected characteristic.

Unisex toilets are the answer to everything, apparently. Cancer? Climate change? Just have everyone pee together and the world will be saved.

(This seriously is the weirdest obsession I've run across in a commenter in a while. Takes all sorts, I suppose.)

Sorry, but when you descend to 'oppressing women in the name of religion is ok, because it helps me win my argument about toilets', you're handing ammunition to those you regard as your enemies. Which seems to be almost everyone TBH.

Sorry, but when you descend to 'oppressing women in the name of religion is ok, because it helps me win my argument about toilets', you're handing ammunition to...

No one said that

No one has said oppressing women is A OK

What people are saying is why make going out for the day virtually impossible for SOME women with these religious views

StoneCold
I agree to a degree hormones are on a spectrum. But I cannot think it is as far as your husband states otherwise wouldn’t there be a lot more intersex people? Most intersex babies born have increased androgen hormones (ie hormones that act like testosterone).

I await your dh’s thoughts with interest.

Elsie2791

It is not point scoring to be concerned for women with religious reasons for wanting sex segregated spaces. Many of us live, work, socialise, receive medical treatments etc alongside Muslim women. My friends are very clear that mixed sex changing rooms, toilets etc are not acceptable for them or their older children. But because they are a marginalised group who doesn't have much access to power, their voices are not heard or sought.

Just because I may disagree with some aspects of Islam doesn't mean that I'm going to dismiss their concerns or tell them that they're plain wrong.

*Unisex toilets are the answer to everything, apparently. Cancer? Climate change? Just have everyone pee together and the world will be saved.

(This seriously is the weirdest obsession I've run across in a commenter in a while. Takes all sorts, I suppose.)*

As I said, it's not me who keeps perpetuating this argument. It's the people who said they were going to ignore me a while back.

And again I repeat - the position of many on this thread is so entrenched that they aren't able to look, rationally, at what the issues are, but cling to their position, with ever more baroque assertions in their defence. Oh no, we can't have a woman go into a toilet where a man is present (is he going to be in the cubicle with her?) because muslim fundamentalists may become upset. Seriously? Seriously? That is a feminist argument?

Kind of like the people you're arguing against actually, of whom I am not one, but you're determined to cast me as one because you are unable to recognise that this is a discussion with differing points of view, and areas that are ambiguous.

I have to agree with Elsie on one point. I hate religious oppression being used as reason for separate toilets.

Nice and comfy there under that bridge?

So the thought would go

To make women less oppressed for religious reasons ensure that they can't take a piss when out in public

Right

It's the idea that women must cover their hair in public and in front of men that should go.

No Elsie, it isnt.
Neither is telling those women to get over themselves, or leave their culture.

The last thing women need is other women telling them they are being precious for wanting a woman to administer a smear test, or a woman only hospital ward.

When you are so entrenched in your own ideology that you are prepared to erase The Equality Act, you dont also get to make yourself the arbiter of human rights.

Women volunteer in outreach programs to teach refugees English, maths, and basic skills so they can participate in public life. Some of those volunteers can only be women.
Telling them to get over their religion is not how change happens.

It is not point scoring to be concerned for women with religious reasons for wanting sex segregated spaces. "

Oh come on, of course it is. It's not a genuine concern, it's just clutching at any straw to make an argument.

I used to work in an advice centre where there was a large muslim clientele. There was one unisex toilet - it had its own door and was entirely self contained. But some clients still complained that weren't male and female toilets. Didn't stop most of them using it though.

If, at work, your colleagues couldn't pee all day then there would be a problem. So there needs to be a toilet they can use. But as I said, if you go into a coffee shop, they usually have one or two unisex loos. No-one's yet sued Costa I know of, so the answer is just a few facilities like that.

If someone refuses to use a separate unisex loo, I very much doubt that's something the equality act would consider discrimination. And how many women remove their hijab to pee anyway? Last time I checked they were worn on the head.

I actually came onto the thread to answer the OP again and say that I think a huge problem is how the trans rights lobby has piggybacked itself onto the gay rights issue.

I think many people who haven't given this issue much thought simply think that trans rights are like gay rights. They think that saying transwomen are men is like saying that homosexuality is morally wrong. They don't think further than that.

Toilets have nothing to do with the OP. And they are a diversion.

Why do you think that people believe transwomen are women?

If you hate religious oppression then go fight it. Fight the men, not the women.
You might be surprised to see how reluctant the women are to embrace your proffered freedom. Changing a culture takes generations of small changes.
You expect women to just walk away form their entire culture and community, and everything they have known, just because you say so.

Do you blame women for staying with abusive partners?

Thats where the trans activists have gone wrong. Just making a demand and overthrowing an existing structure comes from a position of privilege, and the privileged only have one viewpoint.
They cant see how hard it is to accept a complete change of culture, or all the potential problems that the new order will bring.