Why DO people 'believe' transwomen are women?

[AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth]

Actually why?

Because the act of 'believing' without evidence or logic is cult like ideology to me.

The repetition of 'transwomen ARE women' on twitter, facebook etc is like a mantra of a cult. Like repeating the rosary or something, and the more that it repeated, the more people double down in their thinking.

I really feel bewildered half the time now.

It feels like a cult

Like a cult or religion, I guess people are free to believe what they want.

But we are not forced to believe other people's religious beliefs; why are we being forced to believe that 'transwomen are women' and 'transmen are men', when there is no objective, material truth in that statement

It's the new Reformation, but logical thinkers, not Catholics, are being hounded out and targetted.

It's mind blowing

Women and girls shouldn't have to be shaking in terror in order to justify why we don't want to get undressed in front of men. If most women would prefer privacy in spaces where nudity is to be expected then the fact that we prefer that should be enough.

Indeed. I am kind of uncomfortable in these kind of discussions when the 'they are not going to rape you' kind of thing comes up. One, they are no less dangerous statistically than any other man. Two, women should not have to be under threat of rape to be allowed to say no.

Yeah, definitely, if toilets are already unsafe then why not make them even more so?"

How is it making them more unsafe to make them unisex? As I said the problem isn't who is allowed into the toilets, It's who is there to stop anything bad happening.

Sorry, I really don't get the argument here. Women are rarely raped and murdered in crowded high streets in broad daylight, at least in the UK.

If there is someone else there to challenge the man going into the toilet, and to stop them going in or doing anything bad when you're in there, then you're safe anyway. If there isn't, you're unsafe anyway. If a bad man comes into a toilet intending to attack a woman, wouldn't it help to have some good men there to tackle him? Assuming we don't believe all men are rapists?

The more people in toilets, the safer they are, which is why women rarely get raped and murdered in crowded high streets. And what about people who are out with children of the opposite sex?

I suspect that people keep directing the argument back to toilets because that argument is easier to justify (whether to themselves or others) than changing rooms, or prisons, or shelters. It's an attempt to minimize the potential issues and frame trans women's access to women's spaces in the way the public is least likely to push back against.

"Women and girls shouldn't have to be shaking in terror in order to justify why we don't want to get undressed in front of men. If most women would prefer privacy in spaces where nudity is to be expected then the fact that we prefer that should be enough."

Absolutely. But this is why 'transwomen aren't women' is a massive red herring. It isn't the key issue in any way, shape or form. The issue is women's autonomy.

And women in general don't want male people in public bathrooms with them. Not sure what part of that you're not understanding.

“I suspect that people keep directing the argument back to toilets because that argument is easier to justify”

Yes. And then they can say that “TERFS” are obsessed by loos.

Loos are the easiest problem to solve- it just needs to have money thrown at it.

I suspect that people keep directing the argument back to toilets because that argument is easier to justify (whether to themselves or others) than changing rooms, or prisons, or shelters. It's an attempt to minimize the potential issues and frame trans women's access to women's spaces in the way the public is least likely to push back against."

I don't keep directing the argument back to toilets. I've talked about changing rooms, prisons and shelters, and agreed they should be single sex. Others keep arguing about toilets. I just said I think gender neutral toilets are a good idea. Then people keep saying, that they're unsafe.

With respect, the point I'm making is that if you allow yourself to get dragged into trivial issues like this, it detracts from the important issues.

With respect, the point I'm making is that if you allow yourself to get dragged into trivial issues like this, it detracts from the important issues.

Awesome, then you'll understand why I ignore any further trivial issues that you choose to raise from now on.

Yes. And then they can say that “TERFS” are obsessed by loos."

a)when did I use the word 'TEFF'.
b)I'm not the person who either raised, or keeps raising the issues of toilets. I'm responding to other's responses.

I am making, and will continue to make the point that entrenched positions, and kneejerk responses to things people haven't even said (for example being told my 'racial' point was disgusting when I hadn't made a racial point) make an argument appear irrational.

"And women in general don't want male people in public bathrooms with them. Not sure what part of that you're not understanding."

Since I've never seen one woman, ever, object to a male attendant in a public toilet, no I don't understand it. Nor do I believe it's true.

As I say, it's not me who keeps talking about toilets.

I'm a father. Once my daughter could visit a loo herself, I would wait outside the ladies until she was done. If there was ever any concern over the length of time, I could always ask a woman to check, and they never refused. I never had concern about her safety other than any mishaps in the loo. I wouldn't have that confidence with a male loo if I was a woman sending in her young son.
I'm not trans so have to imagine the psyche... but if I had a penis, and felt female, sure I would understand the difficulties my penis presented, and would spare them having to deal with it?

In typing this though, if I had a severe body injury, should I hide it due to others sensitivities? Is that how a transwoman sees their penis - as something that that their body just happens to have as a woman, and therefore why should it be hidden?
I don't know the answer, if indeed there is a common one, but curious as to their views.

Using a mobile to type so please forgive the odd error!

Awesome, then you'll understand why I ignore any further trivial issues that you choose to raise from now on.

Feel free to do so.

Two, women should not have to be under threat of rape to be allowed to say no.

Precisely. No is a complete sentence. It would be very interesting to see the results of a blind poll of women's attitudes towards sex segregated spaces, and even more interesting to see if the people currently pushing for trans women to have access to those spaces would pay the slightest bit of attention to it.

I understand why people say toilets are a distraction.

For me it's not.

Because it is the arena in which most women are going to encounter this lack of boundaries.

Most women are not going to experience prison. Smear tests once every few years. I understand wards, of course. But again it's not a weekly occurrence.

Public toilets are. You use them numerous times.

And yes, floor-to-ceiling individual cubicles would solve the problem.

But firstly transactivists aren't interested in solving the problem.

And secondly, we shouldn't have to solve the problem. There isn't a problem.

Transactivists are making it so.

For the purposes of argument, though I understand why it gets shelved. Because many women might feel fine with the toilet issue, but then don't extend that to any other female space.

Agree the loo thing is a distraction. I think it ends up as an illustration along with changing areas etc because that's when the hard divide between male and female happens. We eat, drink, work together etc, but this is the point at which we really decide if you're in or out. The rest feels like playing at acceptance. Getting naked with trans is the moment of truth.

Also there's the Overton window issue. If we concede that trans women in toilets is fine, then why not changing rooms? Either sex segregated spaces are segregated by sex or they're not. Having some spaces segregated by sex and others by "gender" won't work.

I'm a father. Once my daughter could visit a loo herself, I would wait outside the ladies until she was done. If there was ever any concern over the length of time, I could always ask a woman to check, and they never refused. I never had concern about her safety other than any mishaps in the loo. I wouldn't have that confidence with a male loo if I was a woman sending in her young son."

Exactly, but that's why unisex loos are a good idea. Because women do have sons. And what if you had been sending your daughter into a public toilet when there wasn't a friendly looking woman about to ask? Would you still feel so confident? If the public toilet was relatively deserted how do you know someone dodgy hadn't already gone in there?

www.bbc.co.uk/newchester-28713123

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/08/21/rape-arndale-centre-14-year-old-boy-manchester-city-centre-shopping-centre_n_1817331.html

Two different incidents of boys being raped in toilets in one city.

Toilets are not a distraction if your religion or culture wont let you remove and adjust your headscarf in front of a man. Or use it at all if a man is in there.

Toilets are fundamental to being able to participate in society. Ask anyone in a wheelchair if they are merely a distraction.

“Getting naked with trans is the moment of truth“

Yes- but there are plenty of people who wouldn’t mind and say so. It’s easy to make people look bigoted for objecting. That’s why it gets so much attention. I reckon people who really want to look at the issues would be better focussing on sport as a headline concern.

The solution to the toilet issue is single occupancy gender neutral toilets, one in each location that also has men's and women's toilets. Trans people don't like that solution because it doesn't validate their sense of their own gender, but it's still the best compromise available. Everyone is safe, everyone has privacy, nobody is left without the ability to use the toilet when they need to.

I will have a bash at answering this but these are not my views but those of my DH. To be honest we have stopped talking about trans because it causes us huge arguments so we both turn a blind eye to each other's opinions.

My DH thinks that the mind and the body are intricately linked and that hormones are on a spectrum. So one might have male genitalia but one's hormones might be on the extreme (very low testosterone etc). And the hormones play a role in perception. So not quite lady brain in the structural lady brains are different way, but the brain perceives things in a way that leads people to wish to be trans.

I think.

Toilets are not a distraction if your religion or culture wont let you remove and adjust your headscarf in front of a man. Or use it at all if a man is in there.

In that case, I'd say you've got far far bigger problems than where to pee quite frankly. Have you ever been in a cafe? They frequently have one unisex loo these days.

And you certainly shouldn't go to France.

www.tripsavvy.com/how-to-use-toilets-in-france-1517966

I really can't believe that religious oppression of women is being used to score points in this argument.

Can I ask what he has read or watched to lead him to his belief?

Elsie2791

First link doesn't work.

The second link demonstrates violence in men's toilets.

This is something that should absolutely be addressed. Along with cottaging.

CCTV in men's toilets, maybe?

The answer is not to allow those violent men into female toilets. Thereby making them each as unsafe as each other.

Addressing male violence, whether it is in a toilet or elsewhere, is an entirely separate issue. And one that I and most women are fully behind.

And the same for changing rooms, etc. Prisons - special wing for trans women in men's prison or purpose built prison just for them if there are enough people to justify that. Shelters - no trans women in women's shelters ever, some shelters were handling by giving vouchers for residential hotels so the person would have their own room, which is better than what most people end up with. Trans women in men's shelters or prisons - no, not ever, that would be completely insane and everyone knows it, which is why it's not being pushed for.

Toilets are fundamental to being able to participate in society. Ask anyone in a wheelchair if they are merely a distraction."

Absolutely, have you noticed how accessible toilets are usually unisex?