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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Why DO people 'believe' transwomen are women?

413 replies

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 26/01/2018 12:36

Actually why?

Because the act of 'believing' without evidence or logic is cult like ideology to me.

The repetition of 'transwomen ARE women' on twitter, facebook etc is like a mantra of a cult. Like repeating the rosary or something, and the more that it repeated, the more people double down in their thinking.

I really feel bewildered half the time now.

It feels like a cult

Like a cult or religion, I guess people are free to believe what they want.

But we are not forced to believe other people's religious beliefs; why are we being forced to believe that 'transwomen are women' and 'transmen are men', when there is no objective, material truth in that statement

It's the new Reformation, but logical thinkers, not Catholics, are being hounded out and targetted.

It's mind blowing

OP posts:
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AnachronisticCorpse · 26/01/2018 12:42

It is utterly bizarre.

And stating material facts is now classed as hate speech, and is leading to people losing their jobs and memberships. It’s insane.

AnachronisticCorpse · 26/01/2018 12:48

The other weird thing is the insistence that Trans are the most victimised and oppressed group out of everybody ever.

Lolwhut?

Love51 · 26/01/2018 12:50

Because the word transwoman has the word woman in it, so it sounds like the word is describing a sub group of women. Black women, white women, disabled women, post menopausal women, trans women.
People don't 'think' they use intuition. And transwomen intuitively sounds like it is just another group in that list.

Count2three · 26/01/2018 12:52

I’m utterly mortified by this and identity politics in general. What can we actually do to challenge this?

stitchglitched · 26/01/2018 12:53

They don't believe it, deep down. They say they do in order to virtue signal and refuse to engage in debate because they know that it is a phrase that doesn't stand up to any scrutiny. The guy on twitter who was lecturing women on this and then had to painfully backtrack once he realised that he might have to consider transwomen as sexual partners sums the whole thing up really. A meaningless mantra that is used to silence dissenters and must not be looked at in any depth otherwise the whole thing falls apart.

BigDeskBob · 26/01/2018 12:53

I don't think anyone believes it. I think people say these men are women because they think they are being kind, or are scared to say any thing different, or simply don't care. Some people will say men are women, because women doesn't mean 'adult human female', but is a stereotype instead.

FlaviaAlbia · 26/01/2018 12:56

I think some of the men who say it consider trans women to be "not men" so therefore they must be women... They find it easier to accept someone being 'born in the wrong body' than being a man who wears a dress.

Until they're expected to have a relationship with one anyway.

ChemistryGeek · 26/01/2018 12:58

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ChemistryGeek · 26/01/2018 13:07

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Oooocrikeyitscold · 26/01/2018 13:09

Why do you care either way?!

redexpat · 26/01/2018 13:10

Everytime I see it I think 4 legs good, 2 legs bad.

stitchglitched · 26/01/2018 13:11

I was just thinking exactly the same redexpat!

iamawoman · 26/01/2018 13:14

Any discussion or debate is shutdown with accusations of transphobia / bigotry. Please someone define a transwoman for a start as what i can see this ranges from someone who has had all the surgery and hormones to remove as much maleness as possible and presents to the world as female to someone who externally presents as male but who claims that their inner identity is female or they feel female yet has little or no lived experience as a woman such as lily madigan. I really feel for some transwomen that just want to live a normal life as possible but there is a growing malevolence out there which seems to be directing a lot of hatred towards what they term as ciswomen

iamawoman · 26/01/2018 13:16

Whats doxxing?

HairyBallTheorem · 26/01/2018 13:19

Okay, I'll give this a go in the spirit of "giving a sympathetic hearing to your oponents". Apologies in advance - this will be long, and somewhat esoteric.

I think the fundamental issue is one David Hume pointed to back in the 18th century - what he called the problem of "natural kinds." We know that human beings love to classify things, and that classifying things has practical consequences. The question is whether this classification relates to how nature is or whether it reflects what we're interested in. For instance take the category "kinds of animals humans eat". In the UK, this doesn't include horses and dogs; in other parts of the world it does. But most of us would balk at including a cabbage in the list of "kinds of animals humans eat".

Now at this point you might say "well, science tells us the answer." But the problem is it doesn't, necessarily. There are two issues.

One is the somewhat esoteric issue of philosophical scepticism - if all our knowledge is mediated by what we choose to find interesting to look at (kind of confirmation bias on steroids) how do we know that we've identified the real natural kinds that are "out there" (and what does "out there" mean, and how do we get at it, independent of our experience, which is coloured and tainted by our preconceptions).

The other issue is a practical one. You sometimes end up with competing ways of doing the classification. Pre Darwin, biologists and "natural historians" relied on structural similarities/differences between animals to draw up the boundaries between species - Linnaean classification. Post Darwin, a lot of biologists suggest instead using evolutionary history to say where the boundaries lie. This difference of opinion lives on today and isn't as straightforward as you might think to resolve. Take, for e.g., one criterion which is "two animals are the same species if they can mate and produce fertile offspring." This becomes less-than-straightforward because of, say, ring species (e.g certain types of bird species round the edge of an ocean basin - A can interbreed with neighbouring species B, B with C, C with D... until we get all the way round the ring and find D can't interbreed with A). Because of this sort of complication, the argument about whether to classify based on structural "shape" or evolutionary heritage still rumbles on in biology today.

So if classification isn't straightforward even in the scientific world, what happens when we throw in the social world? Well, at that point all hell breaks lose. Social constructionists have loads of examples to point to - for instance from the history of psychology, where the decision to classify a certain set of behaviours in a patient as a "mental illness" often tells you more about the social and cultural background of the psychologists making the classification than it does about the patient ("hysteria" for example).

Now, you might think the hard sciences were immune from this, but in fact the history of science is littered with ideas that at the time seemed to have considerable explanatory value but then fell by the wayside (phlogiston theory, or the caloric theory of heat for instance). The trouble is it only seems possible to make the judgement about which ideas are good ones and which ideas turn out to be dead ends after the fact - there is no magic bullet of scientific methodology which will guarantee that the theory you're working on now will turn out to be one of the good ones.

Once you accept that you can't "see the joints" between natural kinds, they become up for grabs - especially when we're talking not about the scientific implications (how do I decide what a woman is in order to decide which subset of people to ask to donate eggs for IVF treatment for infertile women) but about the social and legal implications (all women shortlists, STEM scholarships etc.)

So I think the argument goes "There are no clear-cut criteria for identifying natural kinds - and that includes binary sex distinctions (hence TRA's emphasis on appropriating intersex conditions). And in any case, supposedly natural kinds are often socially-based categories of interest which tell us as much about social beliefs as they do about scientific fact. This being so, why shouldn't we define "woman" not according to our narrow and imperfect scientific interpretation of the word (science which comes loaded with a tacit and unexamined bias towards social conservatism), but instead in terms of other considerations such as creating a more tolerant, inclusive and open society.

Of course, as numerous posters have pointed out, in the real world you're going to go bankrupt pretty soon as a livestock farmer if you don't know which animals to breed with which other animals - both in terms of species and in terms of sex. But I think the old-fashioned sceptical/new version post-modern argument against the realism of natural kinds can be very seductive if you haven't actually run bang into the real-world consequences of sexism and realised that those are entirely driven by people correctly recognising your actual biological sex and treating you according to their prejudices about your actual biological sex.

Apologies for the slightly fatuous aphorisms:
"A boy is a boy for all his life..." ("Biologically" based societies.)
"A girl is a boy till she becomes a wife..." (Bacha Posh in Afghanistan)
"A girl is a boy if she's celibate for life..." (Sworn Virgins, Albania).

For the post-modernist, there is no answer as to which of these is right.

AnachronisticCorpse · 26/01/2018 13:20

Anyone who still thinks of transgendered males as sweet middle aged men who’ve lived their whole lives in the wrong body, should check out the hashtag #transgirl on twitter. But prepare yourself with some bleach for your eyes.

That’s the reality of modern transgender, it’s very far removed from our old allies the Transexuals.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 26/01/2018 13:20

No one really believes it.

How many TIMs identifying as lesbian sleep with other TIMs identifying with lesbians?

It's purely a device to shut down debate.

As someone in another thread said, trans identifying males are women just doesn't have the same ring to it.

TheSockGoblin · 26/01/2018 13:24

I wonder sometimes whether the open-armed acceptance of transwomen as women has anything to do with a hope that if women accept 'male women' these people will in return help and protect them.

Kind of like 'ok if we make you honourary women maybe you'll be nice about women generally and we can all get somewhere.'

Not saying that terribly well.. but I guess accepting people more powerful into a group in the hope they'll raise the power of the group overall?

Also not saying I agree...I just do wonder about it sometimes as a possible reason.

AngryAttackKittens · 26/01/2018 13:31

They don't. They're lying. I think a lot of them wish that people who don't conform to sex stereotypes could somehow be made to be the other sex though.

MsBeaujangles · 26/01/2018 13:37

Do people ever reply to the TWAW mantra with #prove it or #I don’t believe you?

strawberriesaregood · 26/01/2018 13:40

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busyboysmum · 26/01/2018 13:45

It's completely bizzaire. I think surely no-one can really believe it. I think India in CBB clearly showed this. I don't think even India believes it tbh. And certainly India has not been able to find a heterosexual man who believes it.

TheSockGoblin · 26/01/2018 13:47

I'm moderate. I don't consider myself to be either lib fem or rad fem, or supportive of TRA or supportive of some of the more extreme radical feminist ideals. Like many belief systems and ideologies sometimes there can be extreme ends to the scale.

From my huge amount of lurking here and elsewhere I do think that people on this board are FAR more open to debate and discussion than anywhere else - I would never dream of posting what I just posted anywhere else i can think of right now. But in posting this comment I have no fear that anyone who regularly uses this board is going to personally attack me or be rude.

I can't say the same for anywhere else when it comes to this issue!

BigDeskBob · 26/01/2018 13:48

strawberriesaregood, if a man can be a women, but not female, why should they be allowed in female spaces?

ChemistryGeek · 26/01/2018 13:49

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.