Why DO people 'believe' transwomen are women?

[AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth]

Actually why?

Because the act of 'believing' without evidence or logic is cult like ideology to me.

The repetition of 'transwomen ARE women' on twitter, facebook etc is like a mantra of a cult. Like repeating the rosary or something, and the more that it repeated, the more people double down in their thinking.

I really feel bewildered half the time now.

It feels like a cult

Like a cult or religion, I guess people are free to believe what they want.

But we are not forced to believe other people's religious beliefs; why are we being forced to believe that 'transwomen are women' and 'transmen are men', when there is no objective, material truth in that statement

It's the new Reformation, but logical thinkers, not Catholics, are being hounded out and targetted.

It's mind blowing

They were part of my team.

I agree. That was thing that really made me click on the yawning gulf between the TRA words and actions and those of trans people like Miranda Yardley and the MNetters who post here. Miranda is very much on the team of biological women, is interested in representing their interests and works damn hard on behalf of that team while sucking up a lot of abuse. The MNetters here post all over the forum and not just in the feminist politics bits, they are interested in the experience and issues of other women, they think about and talk about all women in their posts, they feel very much of 'the team' as opposed to just having gender critical views aligning.

The TRA agenda has no interest in biological women of any kind, it focuses entirely on appropriating the appearance and the perceived entitlements of being female. (But women can keep the boring and unpleasant bits.) They demand obedient silence on all issues pertaining to female biology (which is most of women's issues and politics), total intolerance of women claiming any independent life experience of their own, absolute disinterest in promoting or supporting issues affecting women and girls unless it's to take it over and refocus it as a trans issue, and not only don't care whether that silences and harms women's interests but actively believe women have no right to protect or focus on their own interests. They could not be further from 'team woman'.

"Repeat a lie often enough and it becomes the truth”

“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State"

Joseph Goebbels, re propoganda

Only speaking from what I’ve heard from my teens and one friend, they truely believe that you can be born in the wrong body (I know, I’m working on it) Trapped like Stephen Hawkin with a body that doesn’t match the inside. They want these poor blokes to be able to escape and they’ve been sold a lie as to how successful these operations are. They are also being kind, they haven’t seen the hate from TRA’s

For a lot of people, I think they believe it because they believe (or have been told) that it’s an essential part of being pro-LGBT, pro-feminist, pro-wanting trans people to live happy, discrimination-free lives. It isn’t just another belief that goes along with those, it’s PART of those, and if you reject it then you’re a TERF who hates trans people and wants them all to die. Want to be a non-TERF? Then you have to believe this, it’s not optional.

For them it’s like the young-earth creationists who will swear on their life that Noah herded dinosaurs onto the Ark and scientists are covering up the proof. They do that because they’re told: if you reject this, if you doubt this out loud, then you are rejecting your entire religion and community.

For both groups there’s no point saying “but that’s batshit, that makes no sense”. They aren’t considering it as an isolated belief.

As other posters have said, most of the people who unthinkingly chant four legs good two legs better repeat "transwomen are women" don't believe it. Here's a very clear example:

twitter.com/greenrd/status/951948874331099137

Can I ask people about someone I know who transitioned from female to male a few years ago. He's lived his life for around fifteen years or so as a male. He's had as much surgery as I think is possible and now has no breasts and has a penis. He has sexual relationships with women. Is he a man? I don't know him well at all but I could never think of him as female.

That twitter thread is hilarious, nauticant - it's the way he admits he won't have sex with transwomen, thinks there should be exceptions so transwomen shouldn't be sent to women's prisons or compete in women's sports, then says (when someone points out that this is getting distinctly terf-y on his part) "I can't be a terf because I'm not a radical feminist."

Newsflash, Robin my boy, terf is something other people call you. I know people labelled terf who are women, but not rad fems (or indeed any sort of feminist - including some on this board who are highly gender critical but reject the label "feminist.") You can be labelled a terf while being a transwoman yourself. Funnily enough, not many men get labelled terf, which kinda makes you think the label is not so much about the person's views, more about identifying them as a latter day witch. A suspicion borne out by the go-to follow up threat of "die in a fire."

I find the phrase “transwomen are women” so vague that I don’t understand what people actually mean by it.

“Transwomen” is an imprecise word. Does it encompass men who occasionally wear a dress and high heels? Are they “women” when wearing a dress but not otherwise? What about men who simply “feel” like a woman but present as male? Is “transwomen” in this context intended to encompass anybody who self identifies - even intermittently - as a woman?

Then there is a huge problem with the second part of the phrase. What is meant by those people actually being “a woman”?

Does it mean being a woman for all purposes, or are there limits at all? “Woman” has a particular meaning in sport to determine who is entitled to compete as a woman in certain events. I can’t believe that everybody who expresses a belief that “transwomen are women” actually thinks that this should entitle anybody who self identifies as a woman to compete in women’s sporting events.

Similarly, is there really a belief that all “transwomen” should be treated as a woman in every single context? So that somebody who is a man in every outward aspect should be entitled to women’s scholarships, access to women’s prisons, to be able to bathe women suffering from dementia without question no matter how confusing or frightening it might be for them?

As soon as there is any acknowledgement that there should be some limits to the phrase (whether to the meaning of “transwomen” or to the extent to which they are considered “a woman” in law or everyday life) the whole phrase becomes utterly meaningless. And the absurdity of refusing to engage in any debate (“#nodebate”) becomes clear.

They dont believe it otherwise there would be no such class as 'orientation' or 'homosexual' or 'bisexual'.
Being gay could never have been illegal. Homophobia couldnt exist as a concept.

A rolled up flap of skin from someone's arm or leg is not a penis. Especially not if you have any intention of attempting to have sex with it.

Having said this and given it some thought I think sometimes anomalies can occur and the person affected may feel genuinely feel they are of the opposite sex.

Has anyone heard of case of David Reimer? A male who was raised as a girl but didn't know his true sex. He became aware that something wasn't right even though he was raised as a girl and his parents eventually told him the truth in his teens.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/samanthakatepsychology.wordpress.com/2012/04/28/david-reimer-possibly-the-most-unethical-study-in-psychological-history/amp/

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer

Also there are some scientific studies that indicate androgen exposure in the womb may have a masculinising affect on females. Whilst androgen exposure in womb may have subtle effects, other medical conditions such as androgen insensitivity syndrome- a male with xy chromosomes is born and will grow with a female outward appearance.

I think sometimes there are genuine medical conditions that could cause someone to have genuine feeling that they are in the wrong body and I have much sympathy for these people.

My issue is self declaration, surely the process needs to be carefully managed by medical professionals. I do feel it is a medical condition- either physically or mentally.
The proposals to self declare trivialise the issue.
I also don't like the way the issue is being promoted to children- if it's a medical condition, and I think it is and should remain so, it should not be promoted as a life style choice.

There are people out there who can help with Intersex and androgen insenitivity syndromes.

They are not transexuals and have been at pains to dissociate themselves from the likes of GIRES and Mermaids.

I wish people would not refer to the David Reimer case as it is not a good example of anything other than abuse. The poor child and his twin were abused by their doctor. He was raised as a boy until about 2 I think, until an operation went wrong and destroyed his penis. Appallingly it was decided by this doctor that attempting to turn him into a girl/woman was a better option than leaving him be. He was then repeatedly abused, physically, sexually, psychologically by the doctor.

He was a boy, that was in a boy's body. That's not evidence towards the idea that transgender men are actually women in men's bodies.

I’m sorry but I don’t know any of those names, and I’ve not seen any trans support threads. All the threads I’ve seen that asked to be trans supportive got taken over and shouted down with a very firm “this is a place for gender critical women who understand the damage transwomen do ONLY.”
I have never ever seen any thread on here with anything along the lines of 'this is a place for gender critical women who understand the damage transwomen do ONLY.' said. Not even vaguely.

Also I have never seen a trans support thread, except for the one created a few days ago. And the only reason it went down like a bag of cold sick was the state of the OP...telling people not to post unless you agree with the OP doesn't tend to go down well anywhere at all...and then the thread progressed even more ridiculously, with the OP just being utterly ridiculous and finally..ended with them actually ignoring trans posters that they were claiming to support

Here on MN you are not allowed to be anything other than 100% against all trans people or you get roundly personally attacked

This is a lie also. Unless by attacked you mean..asked what you think and why. Asking people what they think and why they think that way is not attacking. Whatever else is the point in a discussion forum?

if some conditions don't lead to obvious ambiguity of biological sex, such as testosterone exposure in uterus, these people may not be diagnosed as "intersex"

Is this "personal attack" in the strange new sense of conflating "being personally attacked" with "being asked a reasonable question I can't come up with an answer to"?

Assassinated- I think people use it as an example to show that there is a biological basis to gender. That gender is not purely down to socialisation.

I think a few things are going on with this issue:

1. many people don’t believe it but feel it is kind to go along
2. many people don’t think things through (overlaps with first thing)
3. many people want to be as right-on as possible and rightly abhor the thought of prejudice and here I go back to point 2
4. some trans males presenting as women believe it because they have been socialized as males so believe their rights come first and their beliefs and feelings are more important than women’s beliefs and feelings. And they think being a woman is about appearance, that it’s a performance. Not all TIMs believe this, some are just fine with identifying as trans, but for the ones who do it’s just them prioritizing their feels.

“If you ask me for a list of things that make me a woman my body would be last on the list.”

What would be first on the list?

@Missymoo100 that ignores the fact that he was raised as a boy until this surgical error happened. His parents knew he was a boy, the doctors knew he was a boy. The experiences he went through were bizarre and no doubt created the awareness that something was different about him. It's not a good example of anything at all, and hardly anyone ever recognises the dreadful abuse that he went through.

Reiner knew full well something was "not right" and shot himself. Not sure how that is relevant.

What? Am I in the right place?

Because people on the Left think that people on the Left must be think this.

( My politics on are the left btw, but a number of recent events have really put me off people on the left).

I'm just trying to try and see it from a different perspective and play devils advocate
I do think there are biological and environmental factors that will affect gender and thus a person may come to recognise themselves as the opposite sex.
I think transwomen are women line is to try and make people feel less fraudulent in their assertion that they were born into the wrong body.

It gaslighting. Marking to read later