FTM transition - can I just rant/discuss?!

[shehimthey]

I'm just putting this out there because I have been down a rabbit hole these past few months, trying to get my head round this whole issue. I'm totally with the argument that trans rights should be supported but not at the expense of women's rights. The arguments in the main seem to centre around trans rights seemingly being exploited by men to further oppress women (and I don't mean all trans MTF or TIMs but the TRAs)

However I really want to talk about the young women who are transitioning and how totally seductive the idea must seem. I have seen so many Youtube videos of lovely young women going through Transition. The whole, '1st day of T' cult and the rapidly lowering voice, the appearance of hair, the changing jaw line etc. Honestly, I am jaw on the floor at some of the 'young boys' that have appeared out of this process. I am almost convinced that it might be a good idea. The lovely Mums that suddenly have a handsome son instead of a lesbian daughter. I can really see how as a parent you could be convinced. And then I hear someone like Alex Bertie say that they're not interested in 'bottom surgery' and then realise that you have a female person, passing as an utterly charming lad, but with a vagina. And there's loads of them on Youtube (my most recent watch was Skylarkeleven) and most of them look so happy 'being men' but most of them don't go for the 'bottom surgery'. So they're handsome, passing 'men', usually having adopted a boisterous, tattooed, bicep flashing, laddish personality, coming across to all their Youtube fans as success stories but having to deal with the fact that they have a vagina - young women with facial hair, mastectomies and deep voices. And infertile.

I do'n't know where I'm really going with this other than to say that in some ways it must be 'easier' for a lot of young women to 'become men' because the results of taking T are so obvious and pretty convincing. And of course the appeal is immense. No longer do you have the status of 'woman' and all the shit that that entails - bye bye oppression (if you pass and most seem to) I weep at the lovely lesbian girls that are transitioning themselves into transmen but I can't say as I blame them. And I can't say that I blame any parent that has a suicide threatening teenage girl who convinces them that by transitioning they will be 'happy',

So I guess this post is about acknowledging this and acknowledging the parents who have to deal with their daughters going through this and maybe bringing it back to the damage that is happening to women from this angle. The emphasis seems to be on the MTF and all the issues that brings up,

I know it goes without saying that most people on the Feminist Boards are acutely aware of this aspect. I'm just wondering where this is going to go. I almost commented last night on the site of non-binary, Jakeftmagic (Alex Bertie's 'partner') that I lamented the loss of his beautiful singing voice from his 'lesbian' videos of 2014 to the non-binary, T-taking, be-bearded singing voice he demonstrates now but how cruel would that have been?

I was pissed off last night watching the Miriam Margoyles programme when she was talking to a fantastic black female sheriff in America's deep south. They filmed an LGTBT event and who were suddenly sitting centre stage and getting all the focus? The "T" element again. Suddenly the story of a powerful black woman, rising up and achieving was delegated to trans people complaining about the prejudice they experience.

As I said, I'm not sure what I want out of posting this other than to chat on the Feminist Board. Thanks for listening if you've made it his far!

Imagine the outcry if a female born child was distraught. suicidal because they felt not feminine enough; or worse, their parent thought their daughter wasn't sufficiently "girly". And then the medical professional said: "well, there's a treatment here - additional female hormones, and we can enhance your boobs too. The treatment is literally a lifesaver, because we can save your child from a possible suicide". How sickening is that? No sane person would want that for a child - they would want the child to be helped to love themselves for what they are.

Yet for transkids, for some reason, hormones and surgery is acceptable? Therapy to learn to love the body you were born in is not acceptable?

I definitely understand where you're coming from but everyone is different.

Some don't believe in hormones but some do decide to take them and it does provide good results, my brother is currently going transition and they've never been happier.

There is a huge waiting period fir got one treatment (about 3-5 years of therapy) to ensure its the right choice for them so its good they don't rush into it.

Honestly all i personally believe (and i'm not saying its the right belief) is that everyone is different and as it doesn't affect me they can do what makes them happy or what they feel is right

Therapy to learn to love your body is amazing, i had confidence therapy for my self image and how i saw myself and body and it worked amazingly, but its slightly different. I'm happy with my anatomy its just that i thought it wasn't perfect or disliked how it looked but i was still happy with it.
Not being happy with your anatomy is different and much more deep router and complicated. Therapy will not help you with that as you can learn to love yourself, but how can you ever be truly unhappy when you aren't who or what you're meant to be inside.

Psychological help is what a person with anorexia needs, rather than affirming their inner belief that they are fat, and giving them liposuction so that their outside body matches their inner identity.
Because their inner belief is wrong, and medical evidence shows that an underweight anorexic is not, as they falsely believe, overweight. Their goal to lose body fat is dangerous, their belief is delusional.

Can you see how being homosexual is nothing like this? Same sex attraction isn't wrong, or unhealthy, and it doesn't involve attempts to co-opt others in participating to physically alter and medicate a person due to a psychological belief. It doesn't involve others in validating a delusional belief.

Which of these scenarios does transgender belief resemble?

@Laine01
Being gay is a natural state. It happens to people regardless of whether they accept it or not, whether they have sex with 1000 people or none, they would still be gay. People know they are gay because they are attracted to same sex people.
Being transgender is completely different. It requires a change to the physical body and potentially life long dependence on medication. It is not something that a person can know about themselves because nobody can know what it feels like to be the opposite sex.

As to your assertion that people have to have years of counselling before transitioning. Firstly that's not true, and secondly even if it were, under the new self identification proposals there would be no requirement for medical or psychological involvement at all. That's the point where 'be whatever you want as long as it doesn't hurt others' moves into 'transgender ideology hurts women'

I've never been a proper feminist so i am uneducated on certain things such as transgender agenda I've never heard anything about it affecting women so I've always believed people can do what they want.

I know being is 100% who you are and i guess believe being transgender is the same and i hope their rights continue and get better especially if any of my future children were to be transgender as i would want the best for them x

@Laine01
When you have a smear test do you prefer a female nurse?
When your elderly grandmother goes to hospital do you think she should have a woman wash her after she uses a bedpan?
When a woman is fleeing a violent man do you think she should have the right to stay in a women only shelter?
If you were raped would you want a female doctor and nurse to examine you?
Do you think that trans women who want to be treated as women for the purposes of delivering all these services should at least have undergone the process of legal gender change and present as a woman?

There are many places where women want and need sex segregated spaces. Previously when the numbers of trans women were very small women accepted them in their spaces as it was a very rare occurrence.
These days all you need to do to be considered a woman is say you are a woman. To challenge this is being called bigotry and hate. This is not right. This impacts on women!

I don't think I'll be able to post all the pics I have of 'trans women' who have avowedly declared their right to be considered women and use women's spaces

Try more

One of the nicest things about these recent threads has been the number of what-I-call genuine trans people turning up for a chat, actually, and a surprising number saying quite simply, 'I'm my birth sex, I present as the opposite because it helps immensely.'

I would say most actual transsexual people probably agree with this. I know 3 transsexual people and they seem to agree. Most online transsexual people I read seem to be the same too. Its just these new fangled 'trandtrenders' who say they actually are the opposite sex (usually with no transition done at all)

Psychological help will not help someone the same as psychological help doesn't stop someone being gay.

Ahh but this is nothing like gay conversion therapy. If a gay person goes to therapy to try and not be gay, they are trying to learn how to not be who they are. If a trans person has therapy to come to terms with being the sex that they are, this is very different. Can you not see this? I guess the equivalent when applied to gay people (since trans cheerleaders like to bring up gay people in relation to trans) would be them having therapy to accept being gay..

Also the huge push to 'trans' kids is very homophobic tbh. Better a trans daughter than a gay son. Most GNC kids will turn out to be gay if left alone. When if they are shoved onto 'harmless' puberty blockers, near 100% will go onto cross sex hormones. This whole transkids phenomenon is the modern day version of gay eugenics tbh.

(Not all parents of transkids are homophobic obviously. But a lot are. And the ideology in itself is deeply homophobic)

The big difference is that being gay happens in nature.
As far as I am away animal acting as the opposite sex does not.

It does happen - google ‘sneaker males’ in squid and cuttlefish. They disguise themselves as females in order to mate without the bigger males spotting them.

Nature can be really weird.

It does happen - google ‘sneaker males’ in squid and cuttlefish. They disguise themselves as females in order to mate without the bigger males spotting them.

I think I remember this being brought up in a trans argument actually. The conversation went along the lines of men pretending to be trans to have access to womens spaces/lesbians vaginas. And how sex changes were not possible in humans.

And the trans cheerleader brought up some kind of fish and said that they 'change sex' so its possible humans could do this too or something along those lines.

A marine biologist (or so they said) mentioned that these fish only disguise themselves as the opposite sex in order to mate.

The activist person kept on using the fish as her argument.

They did not sem to realise that them bringing up whatever fish these were actually strengthened the original posters argument, that people (or fish, in this case) may pretend to be the opposite sex for dodgy reasons. Once the penny dropped, the usually vocal activist went silent and did not post again

Onthelist Sorry a bit late to the thread here, but (as a parent of a transkid) I'd be interested to know where you've met these armies of transkids parents who would prefer a trans kid to a gay kid. Not my experience. At all. Medical 'treatment' for gender dysphoria means a pretty certain end to fertility, plus socially transitioning is still so tough for everyday life, tough for serious relationships. You can come to terms with it, I hope, but - 'well thank god s/he's not gay at least!' I can promise you is a reaction I've never come across.

Would also like to say thank you though to everyone who's posted on here, really thoughtful replies and interesting links.

My own personal experience of a FtM is a very good friend's DC.

He started to struggle with his gender identity at around the age of 14 - so puberty. I did wonder at the time. His mum is a lovely woman but when she had him she developed post-natal mania (which is bloody terrifying to watch) and has had severe MH issues ever since. I can't help wondering if DC saw what happened to her mum as a result of being a woman and rejected womanhood on those terms?

Anyhow, he started hormone therapy at around 18 after presenting as what (old-fashioned) I would describe as a tomboy for several years. I know his breasts have been removed surgically, not sure about anything else as it's not my business to ask.

He is now 23, and married. His wife, who he met at uni, is a MtF transexual. They are very happy, and suit each other well. I have no idea how far the wife has gone in terms of medical/surgical transition because it's not my place to ask.

But a tiny part of me can't help wondering if these 2 people would have been equally as happy if they'd found each other and received the love and support from each other that they now have before they transitioned, and if so could they have saved themselves a lifetime of potentially damaging medical intervention?

I dunno, maybe that makes me transphobic. Mostly just confused though.

Bumping this thread - Alex is clearly hurt that this train of thought exists and that it is anything other than a ‘fake’ website of evil terms. They’re intelligent as I’ve watched all their video but to see them react like this is disturbing. There is absolutely no allowance for the fact that lovely people might have genuine concerns for their sitauation without thinking that they’re despicable/unworthy etc. Please Alex- I think you’re handsome (a word that genderises beauty unnecessarily IMO) intelligent and charismatic. I wish no harm to you but please, as you get older, try and understand the nuances of this. You weren’t happy being a lesbian. But you were fantastic as one (a female with a sexual attraction to males).be
Lesbians still love you. stra

An illustration of "Be careful what you post when you are too pissed/too stoned/too young to know better"?

I know! I've been there!

@YetAnotherSpartacus Many therapists keep spaces in their private practice for one or two ‘reduced fee’ clients, who can pay a smaller amount than usual, or even have sessions for free. I work this way, but, like most of my colleagues, don’t mention this on my website (unfortunately people have been known to try and take advantage.) If someone’s looking for a therapist, and finds one that they think could be helpful to them or their child, it’s definitely worth asking if they would consider taking their clients’ financial circumstances into account and reducing their fee.

I don't want a double masectomy because it's 'seductive' or some ridiculous idea like that.

However, posting about my experience only ever gets me hate and grilling because I'm not strictly on the side of everybody else here. It's incredibly patronising to read these threads about 'ooh the poor mites just want to pretend to be men for a bit because it's easier' and just sit back and stay silent.

Hi, I've posted a few times on here before and thought I could contribute to this thread.

I'm 16 years old and a transman/TIF (whatever people prefer). I experience debilitating dysphoria. I look in the mirror and just want to cry. Taking a shower is so difficult when everything I see makes me want to hurt myself. I'm not solely attracted to females (bisexual), so would not be considered lesbian if I didn't want to transition. I'm very gender critical, and agree with what is said on this thread. Also, no one apart from some close friends and my family is aware of my being transsexual - I go "stealth" which means that I keep it a secret (I "pass" decently well).

At my school (before I finished), there were 5 or 6 transkids - all biologically female. Outside of school, I know of perhaps 7 or 8 more transkids - again, all biologically female. ALL of these kids (all under 18) Are attracted to females. The one TIM I know is attracted to males. All of us are from one small town. When having conversations with these people, dysphoria is rarely - if ever - mentioned. The mantra is "dysphoria is not necessary to be trans", and "feeling trapped in the wrong body". All of these kids DID identify as homosexual at one point, and they all seemed to "come out" at once. As "homosexual kids" they received insults, jokes and comments. Now, as "transkids" they receive compliments and special treatment and a lot of positive attention. They all talk about trans YouTubers, Reddit and Tumblr.

These kids are no doubt being influenced into identifying as trans. It's quite plainly seen as "better" than being gay. I spoke to a 17 year old who used to identify as trans but has since desisted and is now comfortable with being lesbian. She said she found a "community" who accepted her and didn't insult her, and she got caught up in the ideology. It's a very desirable community to be a part of - 100% acceptance, lots of "friends and allies", a lot of attention.

Of all the people 14-18 I know, I'd say there's a 70/30 split between "this is utter bollocks" and "stop being transphobic". From 10-13 I'd say that shifts to a 40/60 split. And then under 10 (I volunteer in a primary school), nearly all children believe that sex can be changed. This is a Christian school. I've had to separately educate my siblings, and now they all see through the lies being told - but most kids don't.

It's cruel and it's wrong to tell people that sex can be changed. It's heartbreaking to watch so many gay kids being picked on and turning to transgenderism in order to stop the teasing. I know so many people will defend the TRA and say "this NEVER happens" - but it does. All the time. And anyone who tries to explain anything or help anyone is labelled a bigot.

TT Thank you for that insight. Voices like yours are very important in this debate.

I don't know if this really follows here but it has sprung to mind...in the 1980s it was perfectly ok for women to look like men and for men to look like women. That was pushing gender boundaries...now people are micro-managing their identity and labeling everything...putting yourself in a box is not freedom.

In the 1980s, that non-conformance was driven by our music...what has happened to our music today? Political songs used to be mainstream too. It's seems to be all about attitude now.

Fortunately, when my daughter was going through a difficult period, she turned to bands like Bring Me The Horizon...others are turning to Social Media and we see the results of that.

There are loads of helpful information resources here, jus in case anyone hasn’t already been to this site:
www.transgendertrend.com