FTM transition - can I just rant/discuss?!

[shehimthey]

I'm just putting this out there because I have been down a rabbit hole these past few months, trying to get my head round this whole issue. I'm totally with the argument that trans rights should be supported but not at the expense of women's rights. The arguments in the main seem to centre around trans rights seemingly being exploited by men to further oppress women (and I don't mean all trans MTF or TIMs but the TRAs)

However I really want to talk about the young women who are transitioning and how totally seductive the idea must seem. I have seen so many Youtube videos of lovely young women going through Transition. The whole, '1st day of T' cult and the rapidly lowering voice, the appearance of hair, the changing jaw line etc. Honestly, I am jaw on the floor at some of the 'young boys' that have appeared out of this process. I am almost convinced that it might be a good idea. The lovely Mums that suddenly have a handsome son instead of a lesbian daughter. I can really see how as a parent you could be convinced. And then I hear someone like Alex Bertie say that they're not interested in 'bottom surgery' and then realise that you have a female person, passing as an utterly charming lad, but with a vagina. And there's loads of them on Youtube (my most recent watch was Skylarkeleven) and most of them look so happy 'being men' but most of them don't go for the 'bottom surgery'. So they're handsome, passing 'men', usually having adopted a boisterous, tattooed, bicep flashing, laddish personality, coming across to all their Youtube fans as success stories but having to deal with the fact that they have a vagina - young women with facial hair, mastectomies and deep voices. And infertile.

I do'n't know where I'm really going with this other than to say that in some ways it must be 'easier' for a lot of young women to 'become men' because the results of taking T are so obvious and pretty convincing. And of course the appeal is immense. No longer do you have the status of 'woman' and all the shit that that entails - bye bye oppression (if you pass and most seem to) I weep at the lovely lesbian girls that are transitioning themselves into transmen but I can't say as I blame them. And I can't say that I blame any parent that has a suicide threatening teenage girl who convinces them that by transitioning they will be 'happy',

So I guess this post is about acknowledging this and acknowledging the parents who have to deal with their daughters going through this and maybe bringing it back to the damage that is happening to women from this angle. The emphasis seems to be on the MTF and all the issues that brings up,

I know it goes without saying that most people on the Feminist Boards are acutely aware of this aspect. I'm just wondering where this is going to go. I almost commented last night on the site of non-binary, Jakeftmagic (Alex Bertie's 'partner') that I lamented the loss of his beautiful singing voice from his 'lesbian' videos of 2014 to the non-binary, T-taking, be-bearded singing voice he demonstrates now but how cruel would that have been?

I was pissed off last night watching the Miriam Margoyles programme when she was talking to a fantastic black female sheriff in America's deep south. They filmed an LGTBT event and who were suddenly sitting centre stage and getting all the focus? The "T" element again. Suddenly the story of a powerful black woman, rising up and achieving was delegated to trans people complaining about the prejudice they experience.

As I said, I'm not sure what I want out of posting this other than to chat on the Feminist Board. Thanks for listening if you've made it his far!

You'd certainly tower over me.
Mind you, my darling offspring unkindly suggest that the reason I love the cat is that he's the only family member shorter than I am.

Anyway, nice to 'meet' you, and g'night!

Thanks also to transhobbit Am going to look up dogpiling but get your jist. Really good to hear what you’ve got to say about it all. But fucking hell isn’t it good to be able have a proper discussion about it all.

I’m interested to see how this pans out in the future but I worry for our young people.

Thank you for a great thread and some excellent contributions. Transhobbit good to hear form an older transman who is a critical thinker.

Mother of a TIF ASD 19 year old here, announced shortly after turning 18, after a prolonged period of anxiety/depression and before the penny dropped that she is autistic. I love my child deeply, I respect her wish to be called by her new name and pronouns, and will support her no matter what happens.

But I am literally raging that we are living in a society where being gender non-conforming can be so uncomfortable that surgical removal of body parts and hormones can be necessary or desirable. I am also raging at myself that I had no idea that she could feel this way, and that I didn't see it coming.

I share Mother's anxiety that whilst her peers and kind and accepting now, how will that be in 3, 5, 10 years' time? How gender identity clinics really only offer medical intervention, and how little counselling goes on.

That life as an autistic person is hard enough anyway, without dealing with this also.

That very few clinicians seem to want to (or feel unable in the spirit of political correctness) join the dots between young women self-harming; emotional immaturity/ not wanting to grow up; autism and other mental health difficulties; identity formation.

That we may look back and see this as a form of gay eugenics.

That vulnerable young people are being used as political footballs. That parents are silenced for fear of alienating our own children; or being accused of transphobia.

It's an enormous toxic mess.

Also great to hear from you transhobbit.

Mother, the detransitioners survey link early in the thread is really interesting. The pages of comments from female detransitioners might be interesting for your child to look at, because they all acknowledge pain and difficulties but explain the routes other than transition that have helped them feel better and live more authentically.

About 28 years ago, before we met, my first husband thought he was trans. He was referred to a specialist, had two sessions and started on hormones. I have never been able to believe that the process is gatekept (?) anything like as strongly as people sometimes assume it is. I don't think the current situation is very different from self id tbh.

I agree Anna people seem to be offered hormones like they were just painkillers.
Accessing hormones should follow a lot of counselling and possibly anti depressants. This is a mental health issue, not a physical one.

I've climbed down off my ledge about my family member. Maybe she will evolve past the dudebro phase and maybe I will be able to accept her as a man. Men in our family tend to be full on angry narcissistic bullying entitled guys, and I was shocked when she identified with them. Especially this craving to look just like them, many photos being produced. I'd always given her extra support because I knew how they were treating her and suspected it was even worse than just the emotional abuse. I don't live nearby but I could have done more.
She's an adult though. I'm interested to see the various online cultures that might have been part of her change, it brings nuance to my image of her which I'd thought was a bunch of people with androgynous names doing a fashion or counterculture thing like punk together. She's been on antidepressants for years but nearly everyone I know there is and I really thought it was a case of getting the fuck out of there. I know that place and it's misogynistc jock culture and assumed feminism was the way you read the code, but then porn feminism came along I guess which was useless.
In my experience women have to stick up for each other and against oppressive elements but these wo/men align themselves with a movement that says older women are the oppressors. It's hard to get my head around this new situation, most young women don't even want to use Ms. I used to read a lot of feminist science fiction and a recurrent theme was speculating on possible gender and sex roles, so I guess in the way you can enter those worlds in a computer game now, embodied in the sex of your choice, deciding you can carry those personal desires out into the real world is not that weird. Or for that to become a political movement.
If s/he is someone like transhobbit who found a resolution to their psychological discomfort I'd welcome him/her wholeheartedly and I do hope that it will one day feel natural to frame him/her the way s/he wishes.
I don't trust him/her at the moment though because his/her child seems unhappy and powerless and everyone can see that. I didn't have children because I knew I couldn't abandon my all consuming vocation to make space for them. By modifying herself, she is making him/herself her major creation. Maybe she is doing what I did, choosing a different creative focus, but s/he already used real woman magic and I think s/he needs to grow that one first....
Thanks for reading while I sort out my thoughts.

TransHobbit

Thank you for the tip. I will order two copies as I've been meaning to read it myself.

I enjoyed the Delusions of gender book, I'm waiting for my copy of Testosterone Rex

Apropos nothing

Yes, what about the Royal Society, I think of it as an illustrious but Darwinian, masculine place so I was really happy to see the book of the year award. Better order that one too but will start with Delusions of Gender.

Why didn’t I know she had another book out???? Argh. Thank you.

Interacting with people outside the trans/queer echo chamber helps

Yep - echo chambers aren't good for anyone. Outside all this internet outrage I get the impression most people are just getting on with it

Thanks for your input @TransHobbit

If i may add on my opinion,

Not all girls transition because its "easier" or to "fit in" some are genuinely happier appearing as the other sex and genuinely believe they were born in the wrong body.

Contrary to popular belief not all girls who transition are "lesbian" so i avoid calling them that.

I'm not saying some people don't transition because its easier or such but not many do.

Discovering you are transgender is a very serious and long term struggle that requires years of counselling before you can take hormones to make sure it's the right thing to do.

Not all go for bottom surgery, some go for just top, some none, some all. It doesn't change their level or how much they are transgender they still are.

Some don't take certain surgeries for many different reasons. Because they can't(i.e their unfit to) they are scared of surgery(legitimate reason I've seen a few times) ect.
The reason bottom surgery is often missed out is because not only is it potentially dangerous(and they would rather live presented as they are then risk not living at all) but also its very expensive and impractical for certain people especially how long you are off your feet for.

Again just providing some info :) x

Could you give us the reference sources for your information, please? I like to be able to check peer-reviewed verifiable information.

genuinely believe they were born in the wrong body

They need psychological help, not surgery. Nobody is born in the wrong body. You are born, you have your body, there isn't another body still inside the uterus that you were meant to come out in. It's utter nonsense and I am genuinely perplexed as to how our society has come to believe otherwise. I feel like I'm sleepwalking through some crazy dream.

When people say they have been born in the wrong body surely they mean "I wish I'd been born male/female". Why can't they just say that? That's the only truth.

My only consolation is that I think privately not a soul on earth really believes this shit, but no-one wants to blink first, no-one wants to be called a bigot, everyone wants to appear cool and avant-garde so everyone pretends.

That has to be what's going on, surely?

Nobody is born in the wrong body.

Quite. Radical self acceptance should be the primary aim. Not dangerous medications and drastic surgeries, which should be the very last of all last resorts.

Otherwise, those with anorexia really are fat ...

I'm really sorry then but i disagree with you all

Psychological help will not help someone the same as psychological help doesn't stop someone being gay.

All it will do is increase the number of suicides around the world and more and more parents will lose their children to something that could of been prevented by acceptance, more education, and less bigotry around the world.

I would rather see my future kids become who they believe they are then to lose my kid forever.

Many people actually support those looking to transition yes its not actually "faked"

Honestly if people can't understand it i wish they would just let them be.

You don't need to understand you just need to them do what they gotta do after all, it is their body and choice right? x

Laine, I get the feeling you are somewhat younger than most of the women on here, and that you haven't (yet?) thought this through beyond the idea that we should be nice or people will be upset.

Promoting that suicide statistic is dangerous and negligent. And your future kids cannot become who they are if that means 'becoming the opposite sex'. It's not possible. They can change their clothing or names or have plastic surgery, but they cannot become the opposite sex, and I am sure you know this - so why say that they can?

I too thought that if I couldn't understand, I should leave well alone. But we DO need to think about where to draw the lines on safety, consent and fairness. We DO need to keep children from going down routes that will affect their whole lives, while they are too young to make such decisions.

Leaving well alone is letting harm happen. It's not neutral.

The thing is though that people don't need treatment to be gay. They don't need or want hormones or surgery to be comfortable being gay, quite the opposite. I don't get people on a waiting list for therapy to sound more gay.

Laine you have also said that 'it's not faked'. I agree with you. And saying something is psychological is not the same as saying it is faked - there is a massive lack of understanding of the brutal physical effects of mental illness. I think there is a huge need to understand the drive for transition.

I don't think psychological quite covers it myself - that makes it too easy to say here are the psychologically wrong people over here and the psychologically right people over there. There are cultural reasons why these conditions suddenly rise and fall. Trans identifying people really are incredibly brave and really do suffer but I do not think that accepting sterilisation surgery and mass cross sex hormones indicates a happy state of equality.