FTM transition - can I just rant/discuss?!

[shehimthey]

I'm just putting this out there because I have been down a rabbit hole these past few months, trying to get my head round this whole issue. I'm totally with the argument that trans rights should be supported but not at the expense of women's rights. The arguments in the main seem to centre around trans rights seemingly being exploited by men to further oppress women (and I don't mean all trans MTF or TIMs but the TRAs)

However I really want to talk about the young women who are transitioning and how totally seductive the idea must seem. I have seen so many Youtube videos of lovely young women going through Transition. The whole, '1st day of T' cult and the rapidly lowering voice, the appearance of hair, the changing jaw line etc. Honestly, I am jaw on the floor at some of the 'young boys' that have appeared out of this process. I am almost convinced that it might be a good idea. The lovely Mums that suddenly have a handsome son instead of a lesbian daughter. I can really see how as a parent you could be convinced. And then I hear someone like Alex Bertie say that they're not interested in 'bottom surgery' and then realise that you have a female person, passing as an utterly charming lad, but with a vagina. And there's loads of them on Youtube (my most recent watch was Skylarkeleven) and most of them look so happy 'being men' but most of them don't go for the 'bottom surgery'. So they're handsome, passing 'men', usually having adopted a boisterous, tattooed, bicep flashing, laddish personality, coming across to all their Youtube fans as success stories but having to deal with the fact that they have a vagina - young women with facial hair, mastectomies and deep voices. And infertile.

I do'n't know where I'm really going with this other than to say that in some ways it must be 'easier' for a lot of young women to 'become men' because the results of taking T are so obvious and pretty convincing. And of course the appeal is immense. No longer do you have the status of 'woman' and all the shit that that entails - bye bye oppression (if you pass and most seem to) I weep at the lovely lesbian girls that are transitioning themselves into transmen but I can't say as I blame them. And I can't say that I blame any parent that has a suicide threatening teenage girl who convinces them that by transitioning they will be 'happy',

So I guess this post is about acknowledging this and acknowledging the parents who have to deal with their daughters going through this and maybe bringing it back to the damage that is happening to women from this angle. The emphasis seems to be on the MTF and all the issues that brings up,

I know it goes without saying that most people on the Feminist Boards are acutely aware of this aspect. I'm just wondering where this is going to go. I almost commented last night on the site of non-binary, Jakeftmagic (Alex Bertie's 'partner') that I lamented the loss of his beautiful singing voice from his 'lesbian' videos of 2014 to the non-binary, T-taking, be-bearded singing voice he demonstrates now but how cruel would that have been?

I was pissed off last night watching the Miriam Margoyles programme when she was talking to a fantastic black female sheriff in America's deep south. They filmed an LGTBT event and who were suddenly sitting centre stage and getting all the focus? The "T" element again. Suddenly the story of a powerful black woman, rising up and achieving was delegated to trans people complaining about the prejudice they experience.

As I said, I'm not sure what I want out of posting this other than to chat on the Feminist Board. Thanks for listening if you've made it his far!

Isn't the recommendation a total hysterectomy within 5 years? 7? Because the cancer risk is so scarily high.

No it's not in a whim. They strongly believe what they're doing.
Then they go back to the psychotherapists and say: what's happened? I don't feel any better.

Where do you go with that?

Hmm true. I don't know what happens after that point.

I think we absolutely need to be talking about this. TIM's shout the loudest and get all the attentiom.

I was very struck by Alex Bertie too. He seems so confident and happy post-transition at first glance. It's easy to get sucked into wondering if there's really that much harm in transitioning when you watch him.

One if the videos though - he was doing his 'I'm so happy now' thing but then in the same video moved onto saying he had no friends and didn't get out much. It's a while since I watched it but it struck me that it's very easy to perform for the camera in the privacy of your bedroom and appear confident but if you have problems getting out there and forming bonds, well maybe the problem is a little more complex than just taking T. And that's without going into making oneself infertile.

It just leaves me reeling that anorexics going to doctors aren't assisted in getting thinner and yet some with gender dysphoria are actually being given the option to be mutilating themselves in this way. When women much older struggle to get sterilized for serious medical reasons. There is so much distress waiting further down the line for transmen. They won't even ever be accepted as men by society just as TIM's don't ever truly pass. They just physically look too female (with the exception of in still photographs)

True. What's it like in the real world for these YouTube stars? The internet isn't reality.. or it's maybe a tiny slice of reality. And I think it's easy to forget that.

I have a female acquaintance who 'came out' as trans about a year ago, went for her first counselling session less than a year ago, and within about six months was starting on testosterone.

Unlike most of the FtM trans people we hear about, she is/was heterosexual, so now identifies as a gay man - and wonders why she is not finding any sexual partners...

She has a long history of physical and mental health issues, and I do find it disturbing that she was diagnosed as trans and allowed to start treatment so rapidly.

And the cancer risk is another thing ai don't understand. Maybe I have this very wrong but pumping one's body full of hormones must lead to cancer, surely. I can't see how it doesn't. Happy to be told by someone with more expertise that that's wrong.

cancer risk is so scarily high

What's this about and where does the risk come from? I haven't heard. Again, because trans women's health is overwhelmingly the topic.

Isn't the recommendation a total hysterectomy within 5 years? 7? Because the cancer risk is so scarily high.

Yes. After the inevitable fallout when we discover that we've transed thousands of kids when in reality, only a few dozen actually needed it, we'll find that the women are worse off than the men.

A child/teen/adult does not transition to a different gender on a whim.

In a world where YouTube superstardom is both incredibly profitable and the height of ambition for at least fifty percent of our kids, whim probably isn't the right way to think about it. Social contagion and social approval and desire for third party love probably is.

cees lots of these young women are buying T online then going to the clinics after taking it for a while. The clinics have to respond to their changing bodies with unknown hormone levels and that is a way that many women get on T.
Lots and lots of women transition then regret it and revert to being lesbian women. Lesbian is a deeply unfashionable word and concept among young 'queer' women and transgender appeals a lot more to women desperate for a community and tribe. You can't ignore the societal influences on why women transition.

Unlike most of the FtM trans people we hear about, she is/was heterosexual, so now identifies as a gay man - and wonders why she is not finding any sexual partners...

I don't know about most women but I'm instinctively not attracted to gay men. If I transitioned, I can only imagine that staying the same. Why would that change? So yes I imagine the dating pool would be tiny. Straight men want women.

Hmm true. I don't know what happens after that point.

Don't you think that might be a good question to ask before the hormones and the surgery? Amputated breasts don't grow back.

After a few years on T the vagina and uterus can atrophy. I can't even imagine what an atrophied vagina looks like. So not only do they become infertile they lose their primary sex organs.

A FtM patient can't just receive a prescription for testosterone in a jiffy. There are protocols in place, like counselling and living as the other gender for a year+

No.

I was looking for it and couldn't find it, but (trans porn star) Buck Angel wrote about that, ending up in hospital in Mexico for testosterone related ladyparts complications in part because she had been all "la la, I don't need to get medical care specific to the organs that I'm busy pretending don't make me female".

(Sorry for the generic "ladyparts", can't remember if it was uterus, cervix, or what, just that it was a get thee to a doctor right now type of situation. If anyone remembers the article I'm talking about and can find it please post.)

My child and his friends seem to have bought the idea that gender is something you feel. If you don’t feel ‘male’ or ‘female’ then maybe you are non-binary? Or Agender?

It’s really hard to convince my eldest that the vast majority of the world population don’t actually think about gender all that much. We don’t stop and think about whether we feel male or female. We just are. He’s 11. He doesn’t want to tick the ‘male’ box on forms because he doesn’t feel ‘masculine’. Fine. Except he’s a boy on the edge of puberty and while he currently enjoys it when he is thought to be a girl (amazingly the almost waist length hair is clearly the only marker anyone looks for, he only rarely chooses androgynous or female clothing) one day soon he’ll fill out and I don’t want him blaming hormones for his problems - but many people around him will happily tell him that his anxiety would go down, or his relationship with his father bother him less, or his fear of future whatever’s disappear if he started the process to not be a man.

I’ve noticed that many of my sister’s friends are androgynous, use ‘they’ and/or otherwise use gender to explain their issues. But even a suggestion that actually changing gender or sex will not fix the deeper unhappiness is treated as hate speech.

It’s as though a generation (and a half) have bought the lie - hook, line and sinker - that gender and sex reassignment will fix everything. And that’s bullshit. Amongst girls on the autism spectrum it’s so incredibly common that I want to murder the Autism specialists who claimed that autism is extreme male brain. These girls don’t fit in with girls - if they become a boy it’ll be easier. It won’t. And in ten years we’ll all wonder how any of us ever allowed this to be believed.

@AdalindSchade I didn't know there is a culture of buying T online. That changes things. taking matters into their own hands like that, buying t, doing the hormone therapy on their own without professional influence, risk increases.. in any situation. So I'm not surprised that things go wrong, outcomes are not as expected/hoped flex but what about in cases where doctors and therapists are involved and drugs are prescribed and the process evolves over time, maybe the chances of detransitioning in that situation are less?

Fifteen years ago the whole trans thing was being welcomed by feminist groups. There was a sentiment that we welcome born women, and those who were not born women but become women. It was all so right on and compassionate (for the most part).

Now its taken the most vicious of turns and its another expression of eradicating women, and the ever-marginalised group, lesbians. It breaks my heart that woman's bodies are being destroyed like this.

I don't understand what you mean by the idea that lesbians are marginalised.

Geronimo - I think she would be attracted to gay or straight men, but gay men aren't interested in anyone without a penis, and straight men aren't attracted to anyone deeper voiced and hairy, so yes, potential relationship pool must be minuscule.

I don't understand what you mean by the idea that lesbians are marginalised.

Have you talked to any? (Assuming you aren't one)

...

Not sure if serious. Not sure if from the same planet as me, honestly.

ceesadu18, I thought, like you, that there was some heavyweight counselling in place for girls who want to transition. But if counsellors are now not allowed to do anything other than 'confirm gender identity', and not question whether this is a good thing; if online sources are all saying 'You go for it!'; and schools are immediately switching to male pronouns and leaving parents out of the loop -- where are the brakes on the process?

You said your mother is fine with having a lesbian daughter, as I'm sure most mothers would be - just wondered if that's you yourself, or your sister? I am very relieved to hear that you don't feel marginalised, but... are you at school? University? Older?

Very interesting and much needed thread shehim

There were apparently a few transboys at my childrens school

I dont know if thats still the case but one lad i had seen around school since she was 5 and at 15/16 he did absolutely look like a boy. He is at college now so i dont know what's happening, but i hope he is ok

That has to be one of the most confusing paragraphs ive written on here...and ive written some doozies!!!