FTM transition - can I just rant/discuss?!

[shehimthey]

I'm just putting this out there because I have been down a rabbit hole these past few months, trying to get my head round this whole issue. I'm totally with the argument that trans rights should be supported but not at the expense of women's rights. The arguments in the main seem to centre around trans rights seemingly being exploited by men to further oppress women (and I don't mean all trans MTF or TIMs but the TRAs)

However I really want to talk about the young women who are transitioning and how totally seductive the idea must seem. I have seen so many Youtube videos of lovely young women going through Transition. The whole, '1st day of T' cult and the rapidly lowering voice, the appearance of hair, the changing jaw line etc. Honestly, I am jaw on the floor at some of the 'young boys' that have appeared out of this process. I am almost convinced that it might be a good idea. The lovely Mums that suddenly have a handsome son instead of a lesbian daughter. I can really see how as a parent you could be convinced. And then I hear someone like Alex Bertie say that they're not interested in 'bottom surgery' and then realise that you have a female person, passing as an utterly charming lad, but with a vagina. And there's loads of them on Youtube (my most recent watch was Skylarkeleven) and most of them look so happy 'being men' but most of them don't go for the 'bottom surgery'. So they're handsome, passing 'men', usually having adopted a boisterous, tattooed, bicep flashing, laddish personality, coming across to all their Youtube fans as success stories but having to deal with the fact that they have a vagina - young women with facial hair, mastectomies and deep voices. And infertile.

I do'n't know where I'm really going with this other than to say that in some ways it must be 'easier' for a lot of young women to 'become men' because the results of taking T are so obvious and pretty convincing. And of course the appeal is immense. No longer do you have the status of 'woman' and all the shit that that entails - bye bye oppression (if you pass and most seem to) I weep at the lovely lesbian girls that are transitioning themselves into transmen but I can't say as I blame them. And I can't say that I blame any parent that has a suicide threatening teenage girl who convinces them that by transitioning they will be 'happy',

So I guess this post is about acknowledging this and acknowledging the parents who have to deal with their daughters going through this and maybe bringing it back to the damage that is happening to women from this angle. The emphasis seems to be on the MTF and all the issues that brings up,

I know it goes without saying that most people on the Feminist Boards are acutely aware of this aspect. I'm just wondering where this is going to go. I almost commented last night on the site of non-binary, Jakeftmagic (Alex Bertie's 'partner') that I lamented the loss of his beautiful singing voice from his 'lesbian' videos of 2014 to the non-binary, T-taking, be-bearded singing voice he demonstrates now but how cruel would that have been?

I was pissed off last night watching the Miriam Margoyles programme when she was talking to a fantastic black female sheriff in America's deep south. They filmed an LGTBT event and who were suddenly sitting centre stage and getting all the focus? The "T" element again. Suddenly the story of a powerful black woman, rising up and achieving was delegated to trans people complaining about the prejudice they experience.

As I said, I'm not sure what I want out of posting this other than to chat on the Feminist Board. Thanks for listening if you've made it his far!

Ah, in which case I think the recent bulldozing effect of the trans narrative in schools may have just missed you.

Teenagers are being told some utter, utter bollocks, from an early age. And teachers (from what they are saying) are not permitted to correct it.

@ceesadu18 @DodoPatrol If there are no brakes on the transition process, that is terrifying. And something I wasn't aware of

With those two sentences, you have just done something amazing.

Amazing because the usual tactic is #NoDebate and then to run away and never come back again the minute your opinion is challenged.

Thank you for having the open mindedness to accept new information and adapt your position in light of it. I hope you will stick around and continue the conversation

@DodoPatrol Well you sound like a wonderful parent. I think a lot of children are too afraid to have conversations with their parents about gender/identity/feelings and so don't have anyone to help weigh up the situation.

On top of all the other problems Jazz will have as a result of the puberty blockers (actually a drug developed to treat certain kinds of cancers and endometriosis, not to stop puberty) he'll have bone density problems. More about the effect those drugs have on people who take them as children here.

www.pbs.org/newshour/health/women-fear-drug-they-used-to-halt-puberty-led-to-health-problems

Cee -- there was a transwoman on here a couple of weeks back who said that she would have given anything to have been allowed to transition earlier and thus 'pass' better.

She had in the end transitioned as an adult, and thus had the downsides of male features.

But.

She had not had and hadn't even considered, I think the downsides of puberty blockers: the reduced sexual function, the lack of genital material, possible bone density problems, Lupron-induced depression, lack of actual maturity of mind (which is an important part of puberty), possible reduction of IQ.

I'm aware that I, personally, may be selectively reading the negative stories, but these are not harmless drugs.

Puberty blockers are sold as totally reversible but in reality, once you halt a child's normal puberty and allow social transition, 100% of them go on to cross sex hormones so actually nobody knows. Puberty blockers are not developed for that purpose so they are used off label on children with no long term research into effects. Google Lupron if you're interested in the effects of these drugs.

Jazz was not only put on blockers but he was given oestrogen as a young teen so he has developed breasts and feminine hips. His body can never mature naturally whether into a male or female sexually mature adult. He doesn't have enough penis to create a neo vagina as his puberty was stopped. He has never masturbated. He has no sexual feelings. He will either have to have part of his bowel cut out to make a vagina or a balloon inserted into his scrotum for months which will be regularly inflated to the size of a tennis ball making him immobile.

HOW can this be the right course of action for a suicidal child?

@DodoPatrol Very interesting. When I was at school all those years ago, being lgbt wasn't ever discussed by teachers.

What are the teenagers being told in schools today?

Actually, my kids think I'm over-anxious, and also that I'm a total dinosaur about gender issues, but thanks, Ceesadu!

How does that work? I guess if you were married to someone and had a child together and were quite a lot older and they said they still loved you, and maybe you identified as young, or brave by being with them, I don't know. It seems a very sad situation but maybe they feel avant-garde.

I weep at the lovely lesbian girls that are transitioning themselves into transmen but I can't say as I blame them.

Me too. I don't blame any woman for trying to escape womanhood, and I especially don't blame any lesbian in the current climate for trying to escape the label "lesbian". To be a lesbian in the current queer "community" is to be automatically suspect, untrustworthy, an oppressor-in-waiting, a TERF unless you prove otherwise. It must be so lonely and so soul-crushing.

That would have been me, if I'd been born 30 years later. (I'm bi, not a lesbian, but the point stands.)

Where do I start?

Have you come across the phrase 'sex assigned at birth', for instance, on things like the Gender Unicorn? Suggesting merrily that sex, not gender, is changeable?

One of my children thought that literally meant that sex was changeable, right down to the chromosomes, and therefore a boy could have treatment to become a girl who would grow up to give birth.

well given that puberty is a natural process it's hardly surprising to hear about so many tragic outcomes of blocking it.

I haven't RTFT yet but feel compelled to contribute.

My child is FTM trans. I used to have a beautiful very unhappy daughter, now I have a beautiful slightly less unhappy son. He came out to me just over 2 years ago, he is turning 17 next month. He's been living as a boy since coming out. Going to an all-girls school that wasn't easy but the school were very accommodating. Now he's at college where everyone knows him as a boy.

I don't know if he passes, I have seen people treating him as a boy but usually his voice gives him away.

He hasn't started medically transitionning, no hormones or puberty blockers (it was far too late for this).

He has been diagnosed with gender dysphoria and this is centered mostly on his chest and voice. Initially he was very militant and intent on going the whole way but he has now tempered this and doesn't want bottom surgery.

It's very weird as a parent to experience this. I am very supportive of him, I just want him to be happy, yet I am desperately worried about his future life, health and relationships. I worry that he will find that taking T will not make him happy and he will change his mind when it is too late. I feel like I have lost a daughter that I am not allowed to mourn, yet I know he is still the same person.

Administratively it causes problems as well, as he wants to be known by his male name but hasn't officially changed it.

He doesn't think he is male, he knows he is biologically female and will always be, to him there is a big difference between sex and gender, so his sex is female but his gender is man. Before coming out he was not a lesbian and is still attracted to men, and calls himself gay.

We are able to have conversations about all this and he knows my feelings about the whole thing. Initially it was difficult as he was so militant and anything mildly critical was condemned as transphobic.

Sorry for these jumbled up thoughts, I wanted you to know where I'm coming from before jumping in. I'm going to read the full thread now and see if I can contribute more meaningfully.

Oh goodness. Basic biology needs to be taught accurately. headdesk

My fear is that these young women are going to crash and burn as they get older. Youth is a time where androgyny tends to flourish anyway (or it did until recently), and a lot of the adult job/marriage/kids/mortgage stuff hasn't kicked in yet for this generation of trans men. So they're happy and optimistic and getting a lot of social support from their peers. But what about when they're 40 and a lot of that has faded away, and the medical impact of all the testosterone they're taking makes itself known? Beards and deeper voices are one thing, but when it's cancer and wrestling with whether or not you want children and if you can still have them and what that means both socially and medically? I worry they're going to crash hard.

This is what I fear. When I speak about this to my son he says he'll deal with it when and if it happens. The arrogance of youth...

💕💕💕 @ShotsFired

Oh god, I can't get the hang of writing style here, sorry should have been italicized not bold. I mean it's not so different to the trans widows situation. You may still love and support the person, and want to maintain a home for your children. And it's possible that some transing women can be narcissistic gaslighting bullies just like some transing men are.

That sounds very difficult, Mother. You have my utmost sympathy.

I'd say, thank goodness your child has avoided the medical route for the moment.

Whenever I read this sort of thing, I do wonder whether I'm talking on line to one of the several transfamilies I know with children that age, who are utterly supportive in a muted sort of way in real life, but possibly avoiding saying what they're feeling underneath.

Have you had a look at the LGBT kids section, where there are several parents in exactly that position?

(Hugs Motheroftransboy)

It must be terrifying. Watching a friend from high school go through it was scary enough, I can't even imagine if she'd been my child.

Mother that must be so incredibly hard for both of you It sounds as if your child hasn't swallowed the whole story uncritically, but is thinking carefully about various parts of it, which is great. I can quite see your worries that T in and of itself might not make your child happier in the long run.

Can I ask (if it's not an intrusive question) whether you've been able to access any fairly neutral counselling to work through all the issues?

@Motheroftransboy Wonderful to have your insight into this. I completely understand your concern for his future; it is so unknown. He is very lucky to have you by his side through this, whatever happens, while you grieve the loss of you daughter. Do you have contact with any other mothers of transgender children?

@MissMoneyPlant Also, it's probably irrational and I fear for their futures, but I do feel sort of betrayed by some TIFs. It's like choosing to join the bloody regime rather than the resistance.

Yes I do feel like this a bit. On a level I take it as a rejection of me as a woman that my child doesn't want to be one, but wants to be a man like his useless father.

When my friend told me that she was going to book herself in for a mastectomy it was like a punch in the stomach and I didn't even know how to explain why. I thought she was perfect as she was and it just hurt so much that she didn't feel the same. Of course you don't feelingsdump on the other person, so I tried to hold it in, but when I put down the phone I sat there and just bawled.

If that had been my daughter? Fuck. I don't know how you hold it together.

Yes I do feel like this a bit. On a level I take it as a rejection of me as a woman that my child doesn't want to be one, but wants to be a man like his useless father.

I think that's very understandable @Motheroftransboy. And thought provoking. I wonder if the reverse is true of the mothers of trans identified boys: that there's a sense in which that they are flattered/pleased that their sons want to become women like them?