FTM transition - can I just rant/discuss?!

[shehimthey]

I'm just putting this out there because I have been down a rabbit hole these past few months, trying to get my head round this whole issue. I'm totally with the argument that trans rights should be supported but not at the expense of women's rights. The arguments in the main seem to centre around trans rights seemingly being exploited by men to further oppress women (and I don't mean all trans MTF or TIMs but the TRAs)

However I really want to talk about the young women who are transitioning and how totally seductive the idea must seem. I have seen so many Youtube videos of lovely young women going through Transition. The whole, '1st day of T' cult and the rapidly lowering voice, the appearance of hair, the changing jaw line etc. Honestly, I am jaw on the floor at some of the 'young boys' that have appeared out of this process. I am almost convinced that it might be a good idea. The lovely Mums that suddenly have a handsome son instead of a lesbian daughter. I can really see how as a parent you could be convinced. And then I hear someone like Alex Bertie say that they're not interested in 'bottom surgery' and then realise that you have a female person, passing as an utterly charming lad, but with a vagina. And there's loads of them on Youtube (my most recent watch was Skylarkeleven) and most of them look so happy 'being men' but most of them don't go for the 'bottom surgery'. So they're handsome, passing 'men', usually having adopted a boisterous, tattooed, bicep flashing, laddish personality, coming across to all their Youtube fans as success stories but having to deal with the fact that they have a vagina - young women with facial hair, mastectomies and deep voices. And infertile.

I do'n't know where I'm really going with this other than to say that in some ways it must be 'easier' for a lot of young women to 'become men' because the results of taking T are so obvious and pretty convincing. And of course the appeal is immense. No longer do you have the status of 'woman' and all the shit that that entails - bye bye oppression (if you pass and most seem to) I weep at the lovely lesbian girls that are transitioning themselves into transmen but I can't say as I blame them. And I can't say that I blame any parent that has a suicide threatening teenage girl who convinces them that by transitioning they will be 'happy',

So I guess this post is about acknowledging this and acknowledging the parents who have to deal with their daughters going through this and maybe bringing it back to the damage that is happening to women from this angle. The emphasis seems to be on the MTF and all the issues that brings up,

I know it goes without saying that most people on the Feminist Boards are acutely aware of this aspect. I'm just wondering where this is going to go. I almost commented last night on the site of non-binary, Jakeftmagic (Alex Bertie's 'partner') that I lamented the loss of his beautiful singing voice from his 'lesbian' videos of 2014 to the non-binary, T-taking, be-bearded singing voice he demonstrates now but how cruel would that have been?

I was pissed off last night watching the Miriam Margoyles programme when she was talking to a fantastic black female sheriff in America's deep south. They filmed an LGTBT event and who were suddenly sitting centre stage and getting all the focus? The "T" element again. Suddenly the story of a powerful black woman, rising up and achieving was delegated to trans people complaining about the prejudice they experience.

As I said, I'm not sure what I want out of posting this other than to chat on the Feminist Board. Thanks for listening if you've made it his far!

I worry that we are indeed oversimplifying, MotherofTransboy -- all those of us saying that we would have been pushed down the trans road when we were gender-nonconforming kids and teens.

I have child with autism. I get a lot of people telling me that 'boys are all a bit like that' and 'everyone is on the spectrum' and 'I don't know why these things all need a name these days'. But no, their children are not 'a bit autistic', and mine is not 'a quirky normal child', and I suspect that there may be a similar gulf between a non-conforming teenage girl and one who feels she is actually a boy.

It must be terrible to be the mother of a trans child, I'm so sorry to hear what you are going through.
The mother of the person I spoke about has had a ten year long slide to the start of her child's medical transition. Initially her position was 'well its her body her choice' (first breast reduction) which I tried to get on board with. A few years later we talked about our anger and feelings of rejection when the trans daughter decided she preferred the male gender. It seems a unique and affirming experience for the trans person's father. I don't know how it's going for the mother now but I suppose 'its a woman's right to choose' is still the position. I'm afraid to see any of them as I don't think I can refer to someone who I've known is a female since she was one day old as a man, though I've tried. I especially don't like being bossed around. And I think it's illegal not to use preferred pronouns there. ( I do use the new name)
I don't know how or if I want to do my bit to keep my family together as it means lying. Or I could just stay away and hope the wind will change and s/he will detransition which thankfully many tifs do.
I can't shake the feeling that s/he is just bored and this takes the least real effort. Perhaps exporting all the sadness onto everyone else relieves his/her own pressure and brings the attention s/he craves. I don't accept this as dysphoria but I do understand not accepting gender roles. I guess easiest would be to go along with the whole pretense, forget about my anti-lie inhibitions, speak someone else's truth for a change, get with the alternative facts, learn how to act. I know this is all about me so perhaps I should go over to the ethics board as it's a moral question.
Anyway it's all got me ready to rant at the drop of a hat. I go around and round and round the ftm transition implications endlessly.

Some good discussion on here - thanks particularly to mumoftransboy for sharing your experiences and I wish you well while your child decides where they are going with their life. I'm sure you're one of many parents on this forum who are navigating these waters and I appreciate you contributing to this thread. I fear for my own DD and like to think she won't be affected by all this but have no way of knowing how things will pan out as she hits the teenage years.

Transhobbit thanks for coming on here to give a 1st person perspective. And interesting to hear from a late transitioning transman. My impression (correct me if I'm wrong) is that late transitioning is less common among transmen than it is among transwomen. Glad we both agree about the fact that the sudden rise in the number of teens identifying as transmen is alarming.

You mention autoandrophilia - I hadn't heard that mentioned before. I can believe it - because I'm quite involved in fanfiction - which to some extent has overlaps with LARP-ing, and there's a hell of a lot or women read and write erotic male-male fanfiction. Now some of those are straightforwardly straight women who are the equivalent of the bloke who likes to watch "lipstick lesbians get it on" (Bowdlerised version of the title in one of Irvine Welsh's books) - but I'm sure there are also women who're getting off on imagining themselves as men having gay sex. However, do you think it would involve as much deliberate boundary crossing as autogynophilia does? (I understand as a dysphoric transman, you may not have an answer to this, and it may be every bit as alien to you as it is to me.)

"Spelunking in the depths of Tumblr" - that is a truly glorious metaphor. I know exactly what you mean (I do not "tumbl", but I have a good friend who does, and I occasionally check out her page, and I must say it is a very, very strange place!)

The person I was talking about earlier is very into fandom stuff involving gay romance, but it is hard to know if that came before deciding she was actually a gay man or she was interested in it because that was how she already felt.

Slash fiction is hugely popular with straight and lesbian women. It's not a sign of being trans.

Hi TransHobbit

We hear so much more from transwomen it is really good to hear a transman's perspective.

I've been pondering my thoughts on transmen for a while:
I can understand, wanting to get the hell away from the societal package that goes with being born with two X chromosomes and a uterus.
I can understand hating one's female body in the world we currently live in.
I can understand the appeal of being treated like a man.
So in those regards, I can understand why a woman might think, feck it, life as a woman sucks, there's another option which is to make it as a man so I'm off, good luck you lot that I'm leaving behind in PlanetWoman.

Becoming a refugee from enforced femininity makes perfect sense.

But. There's very much another mindset I keep hearing instead, which is more akin to "Oh, you lot are all much more womeny women than me. You are all OK with that sexist shit, it doesn't bother you. You were born to it, you're ok with it. Your brains, they're different to mine. Yours are ladybrains, mine is a manly brain. You are all ACTUAL women, courtesy of your actual ladybrains, whilst I am a fella.

And when I hear this type of justification, I find myself thinking, seriously pal, wtf do you think other women actually ARE? Because we have the same biological sex as you. And our brains are all utterly individual, just like yours. We don't have some mythical pink hive mind. Some of us have been a whisker away from becoming a refugee ourselves.

In essence, I'm not insulted that another woman should grasp a chance to escape the chains. But I am insulted that they should consider other women so well suited to their bespoke pink slavery. And I'm incensed when, having escaped PlanetWoman, a refugee uses their platform to make damn sure other women stay firmly where they are.

Does any of that strike a chord, and what's your own perspective on 'other women', the ones still on PlanetWoman?

Agree. Adalind that's pretty much what I said a few posts back - mostly straight women reading it on the basis of "one hot man good, two hot men better" (as one of my mates puts it), some straight women reading it as a form of romance with toxic power imbalances removed, some reading it because they are trans or wondering whether they might be... many many reasons why people get into it.

That is useful information Transhobbit, thank you.

Learning things here. Have heard so much about autogynephilia but not autoandrophilia. Both seem to be so much more about sexuality rather than ‘sex’. Personally I am befuddled by the notion of gender as being anything other than a social construct - it’s a real stumbling block but need to keep the conversation going.

Again

And apologies if i say this wrong hobbit

It sounds like there is obviously genuine dysmorphia (ive spelt that wrong haven't i) for some Transmen and transwomen

And then being told you are the opposite sex because of things you like (or hate)

TransHobbit thanks for answering.

In fact I'm kind of floored by your honesty.

"I'm a woman who presents as a man"

It's extremely encouraging to hear someone who is trans take this gender critical approach.

That's interesting, Hobbit, about the 'dudebro' being an early stage. DD used to describe the transboy in her class as 'one of the nicest of the boys, because, huh, he's been a girl so he gets it, I guess?', but says they've recently become 'a bit of a dick' and angry with everyone. Does that sounds like a typical phase this kid will grow out of?

Incidentally, are you autistic, given you mentioned it as a comorbidity? Completely with you on the sensory sensitivities thing and cannot wear make up because of it.

One of the nicest things about these recent threads has been the number of what-I-call genuine trans people turning up for a chat, actually, and a surprising number saying quite simply, 'I'm my birth sex, I present as the opposite because it helps immensely.'

It's a breath of straightforwardness in this whole fevered debate.*

Much better than nodebate

I don't suppose you fancy turning up at Labour Party headquarters, do you, Hobbit, and standing for office on the grounds of being both trans and female, thus two birds with one stone?

(Or a hereditary peerage, if that's more your background, of course? Oh please...)

One other question, Hobbit (I really must turn this computer off and go to bed), does testosterone post-puberty do anything for height? I don't know if it's typical, but all the transmen I know are about 5 ft 2, so 'pass' only as very young boys.

I was wondering that (just turned 16 - is that a likely time to start or too young still)?

Testerical sounds a jolly fine word. I have a friend who sometimes apologises for 'testiculating' - i.e. talking bollocks.