FTM transition - can I just rant/discuss?!

[shehimthey]

I'm just putting this out there because I have been down a rabbit hole these past few months, trying to get my head round this whole issue. I'm totally with the argument that trans rights should be supported but not at the expense of women's rights. The arguments in the main seem to centre around trans rights seemingly being exploited by men to further oppress women (and I don't mean all trans MTF or TIMs but the TRAs)

However I really want to talk about the young women who are transitioning and how totally seductive the idea must seem. I have seen so many Youtube videos of lovely young women going through Transition. The whole, '1st day of T' cult and the rapidly lowering voice, the appearance of hair, the changing jaw line etc. Honestly, I am jaw on the floor at some of the 'young boys' that have appeared out of this process. I am almost convinced that it might be a good idea. The lovely Mums that suddenly have a handsome son instead of a lesbian daughter. I can really see how as a parent you could be convinced. And then I hear someone like Alex Bertie say that they're not interested in 'bottom surgery' and then realise that you have a female person, passing as an utterly charming lad, but with a vagina. And there's loads of them on Youtube (my most recent watch was Skylarkeleven) and most of them look so happy 'being men' but most of them don't go for the 'bottom surgery'. So they're handsome, passing 'men', usually having adopted a boisterous, tattooed, bicep flashing, laddish personality, coming across to all their Youtube fans as success stories but having to deal with the fact that they have a vagina - young women with facial hair, mastectomies and deep voices. And infertile.

I do'n't know where I'm really going with this other than to say that in some ways it must be 'easier' for a lot of young women to 'become men' because the results of taking T are so obvious and pretty convincing. And of course the appeal is immense. No longer do you have the status of 'woman' and all the shit that that entails - bye bye oppression (if you pass and most seem to) I weep at the lovely lesbian girls that are transitioning themselves into transmen but I can't say as I blame them. And I can't say that I blame any parent that has a suicide threatening teenage girl who convinces them that by transitioning they will be 'happy',

So I guess this post is about acknowledging this and acknowledging the parents who have to deal with their daughters going through this and maybe bringing it back to the damage that is happening to women from this angle. The emphasis seems to be on the MTF and all the issues that brings up,

I know it goes without saying that most people on the Feminist Boards are acutely aware of this aspect. I'm just wondering where this is going to go. I almost commented last night on the site of non-binary, Jakeftmagic (Alex Bertie's 'partner') that I lamented the loss of his beautiful singing voice from his 'lesbian' videos of 2014 to the non-binary, T-taking, be-bearded singing voice he demonstrates now but how cruel would that have been?

I was pissed off last night watching the Miriam Margoyles programme when she was talking to a fantastic black female sheriff in America's deep south. They filmed an LGTBT event and who were suddenly sitting centre stage and getting all the focus? The "T" element again. Suddenly the story of a powerful black woman, rising up and achieving was delegated to trans people complaining about the prejudice they experience.

As I said, I'm not sure what I want out of posting this other than to chat on the Feminist Board. Thanks for listening if you've made it his far!

Sorry, that should be qualified: some mothers of trans identified boys (of the Susie Green ilk).

I truly can't get my head around the fact that children and young adults are being given health-damaging and life-altering drugs because they say they feel a certain way that defies all logic.

I watched a programme some years back about a syndrome that makes you feel like a part of your body doesn't belong to you any more. Sufferers become hell bent on removing the part - usually a leg or an arm - and some even try to remove it themselves, eg by sitting on a train track.

Doctors totally resist remove the body part on the basis that it is not sensible or logical to feel that a leg is not part of you and that clearly is there is some sort of complex mental illness going on.

Yet, when a young person comes along and says they don't feel the sex they are and request very damaging treatment/removal of organs it seems that harm doesn't even come into it. Apart from anything, it is a very well known fact that young people don't make sensible decisions - they are incapable of truly rational thought due to a lack of brain development. Allowing or assisting them in behaviour that has permanent effects is abuse IMO - it is almost guaranteed that at a later stage, when they're more mature, they'll think differently, whether that's about their fertility, their body parts, their sexual identity whatever. Permanently changing a person without a compelling medical reason (eg they will die otherwise - and I don't count suicide as I don't think a suicidal person is in any position to dictate treatment, having been suicidal myself) should be entirely unacceptable. Why isn't it in this case?

Thanks @DodoPatrol. I have looked at the LGBT kids section but never posted there. I'll have another look.

@HairyBallTheorem we have counselling at the Tavi, which I've found on the whole to be very good. I was worried they would be uncritical and encouraging of transitionning but that hasn't been my experience. It's just not enough though, it would need to be much more intensive. We only have had monthly appoitments for about a year, and now it's every two months. I'm a single mother and I can't afford private counselling unfortunately.

motheroftransboy

I know there are quite a few places for parents who are strongly affirmative of their child's trans identification. But there is also a forum for parents who have reservations, or are simply grieving, to get support. I don't know if it would help you to clarify your feelings or find a way to support your child that feels right to you, but this is the address.

gendercriticalresources.com/Support/

Motheroftransboy
This is what worries me about a) the destruction fo the NHS and b) when transitioning is no longer a mental health issue.

Children are entitled to free medical care and you would assume that includes counselling for dysphoria.

@LeCroissant You are completely right about this, and this is something I did mention to my son. His response is that the treatment for gender dysphoria is transition. I have told him I think it is barbaric, and akin to some of the "treatments" that were used to treat mental illnesses in the past. To an extent he does agree with me and wishes he wasn't dysphoric and that there were other ways to treat dysphoria. He also is adamant that gender dysphoria is a mental illness, contrary to the current orthodoxy.

He's a very intelligent boy and thinks about stuff a lot so we are able to discuss these things. He does take in some of what I say and I am hopeful that he might decide against transitioning before it's too late.

Thanks @LangCleg, I'll have a look at this

It's bizarre that the accepted treatment for dysphoria is transition when physical treatments for other 'feelings' would be unacceptable or only done after careful consideration. For example, it's possible to make someone who's really unhappy with their height taller by doing a leg-lengthening procedure, but it's very hard to get it done because of the pain and danger of infection involved. Even though it's a relatively simple procedure and is effective it is accepted generally that a person needs to come to terms with their height rather than go through potentially dangerous physical treatments.

There are plenty of situations where people are convinced about something that patently isn't true - with cotard sydrome for example a person believes they're already dead or don't exist. They are utterly convinced of this but no one says 'yes, let's bury you then,' the response is to try to get them to understand the truth, which is that they're alive (obviously).

I'm curious about what it is about being transgender that causes so many people to just accept that the words man and woman are meaningless and that you can transform into an entirely different body structure with no ill effects. It's barmy, for want of a better term.

LeCroissant I'm curious about what it is about being transgender that causes so many people to just accept that the words man and woman are meaningless and that you can transform into an entirely different body structure with no ill effects. It's barmy, for want of a better term.

I think it's because of how people classify others into "female" and "male", both on an internal, personal level and at a societal level.

Compare it to your example of people who desperately feel a limb doesn't belong to them, or believe they are dead. It's obviously not true, because of how we classify people as "needs a limb amputated" or "dead". People with four healthy limbs who are breathing and talking are clearly not in either of those categories.

However, with female/male it's different. Not at birth, when biological sex is the determinant, but later. People and society see gender roles as extremely important. So faced with a conflict in classifying someone as female/male, the thought process might be something like "Nice dress - check, makeup - check, feminine mannerisms - check, feminine interests - check, fancies men - check (though heteronormative), penis - check.... hmmm on balance more female". Essentially, gender roles are seen as so much a part of a woman or man that people are quite ready to believe the body might be wrong if these conflict.

[Apologies... I feel like I'm mansplaining... even though I'm a woman...]

I don't feel you're mansplaining - don't worry!

I do think you have a point about the social roles, but (and I know I'm preaching to the choir here) those roles are pretty much entirely fictional anyway - what is it about them that makes people give them such significance?

Do girls no longer call themselves "tomboys"? That was certainly, for many years, a socially acceptable or understood way to escape the limitations and trappings of femininity.

I was a tomboy, and that gave me time to work through all sorts of very negative and troubling feelings about my female body and the roles imposed on me by society.

I mean, having a penis is a stable, observable phenomenon. Wearing a dress is a day to day choice. So surely it makes sense to refer to the stable phenomenon rather than the choice of clothes? (Again aware I'm preaching to the choir!)

In the second wave, there were minimal fee or free women's therapy centres set up in the US and the UK.

It would be fantastic if the gender critical movement could (i) find a way for therapists to donate their time to young people who could not otherwise access services (ii) set up a 'go fund me' equivalent (I believe that GFM takes a significant portion of the donations) to fund young people to attend therapy with therapists who were willing to explore other avenues than merely transition (although I understand that it is difficult to do anything other than affirm desires to transition these days).

I think that what is happening to some young women/girls is so so so sad. What sort of a society have we acquiesced to, for this to happen? All that "post-feminist" ladette stuff in the 90s? All the pink (however ironically)?

It's just so horrible now, and worse than when I was a teenager in the1970s.

I have a young relative whom I think is close to this sort of stuff, and I'm worried; and a sister who would have had pressure to transition were she 14 nowadays. As t was in the 70s, she could just be a tomboy, do everything boys did, wear boys' clothes, have short hair, and be fine.

@AngryAttackKittens
This is the blog post by Buck Angel that you were looking for:
buckangel.tumblr.com/post/4048572475/my-his-tirectomy

Her vagina and cervix had atrophied, in fact the cervix had fused closed not allowing the exit of any material from her uterus.

I also saved this tweet from Brie Jonty which links to a relevant study stating that vaginal atrophy can occur from just 3 months on testosterone.
twitter.com/BJontry/status/930587548568522752

The thread has moved on since I went looking for the Buck Angel article, sorry if this information was a bit blunt, esp for Motheroftransboy.

Perhaps someone else can confirm, but it is my understanding that testosterone is only licensed for use as HRT for males in the UK, and it is being used off-label on girls just as much as the puberty blockers Lupron. So again, we have no understanding of the long-term effects on females.

It's just not enough though, it would need to be much more intensive. We only have had monthly appoitments for about a year, and now it's every two months. I'm a single mother and I can't afford private counselling unfortunately.

This is the situation my family member is in. He is taking testosterone and having surgery in the Summer (top surgery) I haven't asked what happens after that.

Him and his friends seem to be relying on their peers and the internet for counselling / advice, as there is very little provision for counselling that's free and impartial (that's very important).

Mental health underfunding is a huge part of this. They are both students hoping to go into mental health when qualified so I'm hoping there will be jobs for them both at the end of it.

Perhaps someone else can confirm, but it is my understanding that testosterone is only licensed for use as HRT for males in the UK, and it is being used off-label on girls just as much as the puberty blockers Lupron. So again, we have no understanding of the long-term effects on females.

As far as I'm aware trans men are prescribed testosterone when they are over 18 free on the NHS. Not sure whether 'bottom' surgery is free on the NHS but top surgery is.

actually finding a gay man to be your partner must be pretty unlikely

It does, but it happens. The relationship I know could be described a straight man and woman, but they describe themselves as a gay couple. I'm not sure if I inwardly agree with that, but outwardly I go along with it

My heart goes out to anyone whose child wants to transition. It must be agonising. I think if I was in that position I would sit and encourage my child to watch You Tube videos of women who've detransitioned and who are experiencing fallout from their actions. There are some very eloquent people speaking about it on there. It's a minor thing but it might help

I don't think it's minor at all, because YouTube is the route that took them there

@Geronimoleapinglizards if only it were that simple...

Mental health underfunding is a huge part of this.

And it doesn't help this, or the overall funding difficulties of the NHS, that instead money has to be spent on providing hormones, top surgery etc. Meaning the wait for any NHS treatment is longer, so off people go to procure hormones privately, or start crowdfunders for their surgery. Vicious circle.

re- 'surgery is the treatment for dysphoria'
maybe interesting to compare with the practise of surgically removing the clitoris of a woman who was considered overly sexual, (or 'mad')which was practised, I believe, in victorian times
link
in other words, FGM.