Is it bullying to say trans women are men?

[WeeBisom]

I’d appreciate advice about this issue, because the last couple of days I feel like I’m going insane. I have a male partner who generally doesn’t give a shit about trans issues because, as he fully acknowledges, it doesn’t really affect or bother him. Fine. I mentioned to him that a member of the Labour Parry in the UK had been suspended for bullying and harassment. Her crime? She tweeted “trans women are men” and “women don’t have dicks”. My partner responded immediately with “well that’s a really mean thing for her to say, that sounds like bullying and harassment to me.”

I then replied that she didn’t actually target these statements at anyone in particular, and that, furthermore, her statements were just objective facts (especially if you replace man with male). I then asked how it could possibly be bullying to simply declare biological truths.

I shit you not, my partner (who is not an idiot), said that saying “trans women are men” is the same as (and I quote) saying “all Jewish people are thieves” or “fat people are stupid and ugly”.

I pointed out that it’s not the same thing at all, because his examples aren’t true! I then insisted he come up with an example of a true, generalised statement that counts as bullying.

I gave some examples to help : “people who are five feet tall and 400lbs are obese,” and “people with dwarfism are shorter than average”. He conceded these weren’t cases of bullying, but continued to insist that saying “trans women are men”is bullying. He could give no other example where making a statement of fact is also bullying. Funny how transgenderism is exceptional in so many regards.

I then pointed out that relating facts and truths are not intended to be bullying or hateful. It’s unfortunate that some trans people get upset by hearing truths, but unfortunately the facts are the facts. And he responded that rad fems know full well that trans people get upset by such statements, and misgendering, and to persist in these activities counts as bullying. He also highly doubted that rad fems are making these statements as neutral declarations of fact - he thinks it is an attack on trans people.

(By the way- he doesn’t really think trans women are women but goes along with it to be nice.)

What are your thoughts on this? Is it bullying to say trans women are men? And even if we are not intentionally aiming to hurt people, does it make a difference if people are hurt anyway?

There is a clear distinction between transwomen and women and it doesn't need spelling out

It does need spelling out...

the word transwoman suggests these people are a subset of women and they're not, they're a subset of men

See also " Transwomen are women #notadebate"

the word transwoman suggests these people are a subset of women and they're not, they're a subset of men

Exactly. It has become politically important to assert this. Vital.

I realise that TIM is an upsetting term for many. Happy to use transgender person or transsexual as polite etiquette, but never woman.

On that note, I thought the post on another thread about "transwomen" (noun) now becoming "trans women" (adjective + noun) very interesting.

Referring to the use of a particular form of polite language as "dignified" feels very gendered to me. Maybe some people talk to men like that, but I've never seen it happen.

Funnily enough, I was berating myself when I posted as the people I was thinking of who spoke in a dignified manner were mostly male. When I read the above I Googled 'images of dignified people' and of the first 20 people, only 2 were women.

I don't think that this is because men act in a more dignified way then women, I think it is because is stands out more because of ridiculous stereotypes and men are always lauded more than women.

Again, I think this is decent human behaviour.

I still don't understand what dignity has to do with phrasing the same thing in a less direct way.

I can't comment on the original quotes as I don't know enough about their context but I do think that sometimes things need to be said, and said clearly, even though they upset some people.

Eg. I don't really want to be reminded that men's salaries tend to be more than women's, but it's a fact and it needs to be discussed in order to initiate positive change.

The two transwomen who posted on the trans friendly thread both openly acknowledge that they are men.

They don't claim to have experienced womanhood.

They are men with gender dysphoria. And presenting as society's expectation of what a woman looks like, alleviates the symptoms.

And, until recently, everyone would have had compassion and referred to them as women. Job done.

No one in their right mind wants to go around hurting people's feelings. Finding their Achilles heel and banging on about it. Just because it's true.

Transwomen claiming they are women is entire basis on which the translating ideology exists.

Kick that cornerstone away and the rest of it crumples.

Especially as that cornerstone is a lie, which is wreaking damage everywhere.

This isn't about individuals. It's not about marching up to transwomen and telling them they're men, willy nilly.

It is about deconstructing the fiction that transwomen are women, as a concept.

On a one-to-one situation, its best judged on the circumstances.

Women have learnt, to their cost, not to annoy men.

Which, in my opinion, makes it doubly important to call out the fiction wherever and whenever it's appropriate to do so, without either deliberately hurting someone who doesn't deserve it, or incurring a man's wrath if it places you in physical danger.

The rest of the time, it's absolutely crucial. It's not bullying.

It's quite laughable to think that women are in any position to go around bullying whole swathes of men.

And as many people have pointed out is grimly reminiscent of DARVO.

The acronym used in cases of domestic/sexual violence.

"DARVO refers to a reaction perpetrators of wrong doing, particularly sexual offenders, may display in response to being held accountable for their behavior. DARVO stands for "Deny, Attack, and Reverse Victim and Offender."

Calling women bullies for objecting to their boundaries being violated is a prime example.

I feel like both feminism and the gay rights movement are essentially in an abusive relationship with trans activism.

datun

Not heard of DARVO before but now I have it explains everything about this issue.

SuburbanRhonda

Yes, it was eye-opener for me.

I'm not sure transactivists realise quite how much male pattern violence has been forensically studied, collated and analysed. So much so it's given rise to acronyms.

So when they say something they think is original, it's instantly recognisable and identifiable.

Interesting post Datun.

As I read it I thought of Topshop Travis, who managed to make himself the victim instead of the teenage girls whose space he was invading.

He followed DARVO exactly.

The trouble with studying the violence behind this is that it will now all be recorded as violence by women which will really cock up the already confused and in many cases completely made up stats.

Maryz

Exactly. And once you see it, it's blindingly obvious.

And i agree re stats.

In the face of the logical fallacy presented as a thought ending cliche "Trans women are women" being shouted at me repeatedly I now use the term trans identified males.

‘In what way, they have a willy?’ Is my usually response.

Love the DARVO acronym. My mother is a DARVO champion so I know exactly what kind of behaviour you mean!

Won't be long before forms start rolling out where you have to tick the box
Woman
CisWoman
Male.

If when that day comes, I will and I hope every other woman will be stubborn and choose the first one.
No way will I ever describe myself as a CisWoman .
I'm a bloody woman.

They can't force us to play along with any of this crap if we don't let them.

I’m certainly not playing. Why would I need to identify my gender in reference to a bollocked-born man? So I’m a ‘not man’?

What Datun said. Absolutely. And what Mary's said on the statistics.

Maryz, sorry.

If the options are men, women, cis women. Cross the whole thing out and write DARVO.

If the options are men, women, cis women. Cross the whole thing out and write DARVO.

@Datun - brilliantly written, thank you.

The latest phrase I’ve seen them using is having been ‘coercively assigned male at birth’ . Unhinged doesn’t even begin to describe them. 😱

Yeah, how do you know that that newborn with a penis agreed that it was a boy, evil doctor? Did you even ask?

www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2014/06/26/infant_gender_assignment_unnecessary_and_potentially_harmful.html