Is it bullying to say trans women are men?

[WeeBisom]

I’d appreciate advice about this issue, because the last couple of days I feel like I’m going insane. I have a male partner who generally doesn’t give a shit about trans issues because, as he fully acknowledges, it doesn’t really affect or bother him. Fine. I mentioned to him that a member of the Labour Parry in the UK had been suspended for bullying and harassment. Her crime? She tweeted “trans women are men” and “women don’t have dicks”. My partner responded immediately with “well that’s a really mean thing for her to say, that sounds like bullying and harassment to me.”

I then replied that she didn’t actually target these statements at anyone in particular, and that, furthermore, her statements were just objective facts (especially if you replace man with male). I then asked how it could possibly be bullying to simply declare biological truths.

I shit you not, my partner (who is not an idiot), said that saying “trans women are men” is the same as (and I quote) saying “all Jewish people are thieves” or “fat people are stupid and ugly”.

I pointed out that it’s not the same thing at all, because his examples aren’t true! I then insisted he come up with an example of a true, generalised statement that counts as bullying.

I gave some examples to help : “people who are five feet tall and 400lbs are obese,” and “people with dwarfism are shorter than average”. He conceded these weren’t cases of bullying, but continued to insist that saying “trans women are men”is bullying. He could give no other example where making a statement of fact is also bullying. Funny how transgenderism is exceptional in so many regards.

I then pointed out that relating facts and truths are not intended to be bullying or hateful. It’s unfortunate that some trans people get upset by hearing truths, but unfortunately the facts are the facts. And he responded that rad fems know full well that trans people get upset by such statements, and misgendering, and to persist in these activities counts as bullying. He also highly doubted that rad fems are making these statements as neutral declarations of fact - he thinks it is an attack on trans people.

(By the way- he doesn’t really think trans women are women but goes along with it to be nice.)

What are your thoughts on this? Is it bullying to say trans women are men? And even if we are not intentionally aiming to hurt people, does it make a difference if people are hurt anyway?

Re Venice Allen I think other women need to think a bit more carefully about what they're saying when they say that they can't support her because she's just so rude. Women should be allowed to not be nice. Politeness and kindness should not be the rent we have to pay for occupying the social space marked "has a vagina". There's a difference between agreeing with everything she says and supporting her right to say it.

I dont think its the same, saying "overweight" is nowhere near as emotionally-charged a thing to say, its almost emotionally non-existent by comparison. I'd say it would be more comparable to say "all fat people are wobbly" or "all gay people are faggots", its the hurt felt by the people you are saying it to that needs to be taken into account when looking for comparisons.

I think it's comparable in terms of factual content. If you're talking about weight and health, someone who is 5'2 and 15 stone is overweight. That's a fact. Stating that as part of a discussion is not the same as going up to a person who fits that description and calling them overweight - it may be true, but it's unkind and hurtful.

Similarly, saying in a discussion of feminism and gender that transwomen are not women and women don't have penises is stating fact, and it's pertinent to the discussion. It isn't equivalent to going up to a transwoman and saying 'you're a man!' - that would be unkind and hurtful to that individual, even though it's true.

I don't think that someone's hurt feelings, however genuine they are, should be used to prevent people from discussing facts as in the first examples I gave above.

SuburbanRhonda I've also worked in primary schools and I'm so glad that I stopped before this became much of an issue. I couldn't tell small children that a boy had become a girl or vice versa. I just couldn't. I could say 'Jack would like to be a girl and wants to be called Jane -let's be kind and call her Jane' but there's no way I could pretend a magical transformation had taken place, or that Jack had been Jane all along because of her feminine soul/essence/genderfeels.

If there's a female only section, that a transwoman is trying to enter, then it's no more bullying to say they can't come in because they're a man, than it is for access to be refused because someone is too short for a ride, or too young for a bar, or to heavy for an activity.

it is bullying for that person to try to force their way in though.

Thankfully, although I work mostly with parents, I wouldn’t have to deal with a parent telling me they won’t go along with the lie - that’s the head’s job because it will be a school-wide policy (and that’s why she is paid four times more than I am). I would be happy to say, “I can understand why you don’t want to go along with it. I’d have a problem with it too if my kids were this age.”

redtoothbrush, I think people have mentioned before about siblings and about the psychological fallout for them. When the trans person erases their history they erase yours too .

And in schools many of us are worried that the younger children might be scared they will wake up a girl too, especially if they go against gender stereotypes, as of course we should be encouraging them all to do. It’s a mindfuck of epic proportions.

haven't read full thread but here's my take on it.

Whist it is factually correct to say a transwoman is biologically male therefore a man, it is pretty provocative to say nah you're just a man as that is belittling the concerns of the trans community.

Can be completely avoided by calling them a 'transwoman'.

When did this become school policy, official or otherwise?
Did it precede the huge upturn in the numbers of quite little kids presenting to gender identity clinics, or was it a response to it, any idea?

If it's now school policy to tell very small children they can change sex, no wonder they tend to believe it's possible.

I mean, they're at the age where it's entirely possible to make them believe in flying reindeer. Has everyone involved in this mess forgotten everything they ever knew about cognitive development in children?

Angry. I don’t reserve my expectation for behaving with dignity and respect to others to females or women. I think these are desirable human qualities.
The people I most admire in life are those who behave with dignity and respect to all people. This does not mean compromising one’s principles, tolerating vile behaviours from others or lying/colluding with nonsense ideologies. These can all be challenge in ways that do not involve throwing insults. One cannot stop someone from feeling insulted, but saying a natal male can never become a woman is a world away from saying ‘woman don’t have dicks’. Both will insult some, but one is far more provocative and inflammatory than the other. No matter what the context, I would always want to respond in a dignified manner.

Why is bluntness undignified? "A natal male can't become a woman" and "women don't have dicks" are both equally true, one is just a bit more direct than the other.

The problem is that when a woman with a vagina turns up for her smear test with her requested female health care professional, but is presented with a man with a dick who is insisting that he is a woman, I DO support her right to say, loudly if necessary "WOMEN DON'T HAVE DICKS". And I don't think placing her under an additional burden of 'mind your language', 'consider his feelings' or 'be kind to him' is anything other than misogyny.

Can be completely avoided by calling them a 'transwoman'.

No. Not prepared to erode reality further. I may do that to their face, depending on how respectful they are in turn and the context of the conversation, but I'm not calling them women when discussing the issue in a general sense.

And I don't think placing her under an additional burden of 'mind your language', 'consider his feelings' or 'be kind to him' is anything other than misogyny.

YY.

Referring to the use of a particular form of polite language as "dignified" feels very gendered to me. Maybe some people talk to men like that, but I've never seen it happen.

Suburban your comment has reminded me that I need to go in and speak to my kids teachers to see what is being taught regarding this subject. I'll be explaining that it's so I can be armed with appropriate responses if my DC come home saying a boy can be a girl etc and wanting to discuss it.

There's not a chance in hell I'm letting my kids be brainwashed, I'm already concerned because my youngest ds in particular doesn't follow stereotypes and often picks dolls to play with, likes wearing the dresses during dress up time etc, has a few 'girl' toys........I'm very worried he's going to be told he must be a girl, I know he'll truly believe this unless I can counter it as soon as it's put in his head.

Only men can be transwomen.

Only men can be transwomen.

When did this become school policy, official or otherwise?

It’s a bit of a mess really. We already had the provisions of the Equality Act 2010 in place, then the proposed changes to the GRA hit the press and suddenly everyone is disappearing up their own backside to ensure they’re compliant - even before anything has changed.

We don’t mention “trans” children at all in any of our school policies in inclusion and colleagues say the same about their schools. I believe our LA is currently rewriting its policies to include transgender issues but there’s been no directive from above - yet.

@restbiterepeat

YY that is why I have no problem with using the term transwoman. It is obviously referring to a man.

Calling transwomen a man is provocative and belittles the experience of transpeople.

It doesn't mean I think that they are a woman and share my concerns or that they are not a man it just respects the fact that they do not identify as men and have a preference not to be referred as one.

TIMs are men, not any sort of woman.

OP, (assuming you are female) ask him if you can identify as a transwoman, and if not, why not.

This is tangentially related:
thefederalist.com/2016/10/18/shouldnt-use-transgender-pronouns/

Of course its not bullying. IF the person was repeatedly tweeting actual transwomen saying 'you are a man'..fair enough, But the general (factual) statement is not bullying at all. It is knowing biology...mother nature is sooo transphobic

calling trans black people white is provocative and belittles the experience of transracial people

See, does that not prompt a response of "why wouldn't we, for the sake of actual black people, firmly and quickly rebut any claim a white person made to use the word black to describe themselves? Even trans-black. No indulgence necessary. No tolerance for the appropriation of a word needed to convey a very clear reality for a very specific group of people."

Either it's OK to lay claim to a word and use it as a complete misnomer, and know that this has consequences for the group who the word describes, or this is a narcissism that should be denied.

But am I right in thinking that no one actually objected to referring to a transfemale as a 'transfemale' until the TRA's started to claim they were women and started to refer to women a cis?

If that is the case surely saying no you are not transwomen but are men is just responding in a way which is going to fan the flame of the argument.

Yes transwomen are biologically men and I am woman not a cis woman but isn't it a bit tit for tat denying the right for them to be called transwomen?

There is a clear distinction between transwomen and women and it doesn't need spelling out.

Nope. I used to say transwoman but, in the face of this MRA onslaught, it's now become a political act to not say it. Depending on where I am and who I am talking to, I say transsexual or transgender person or TIM. For a very few people who are in my personal circle, I use feminine pronouns but for everyone else I use they/them.

I feel the need to assert and enforce my boundaries, including with respect to language, and so that's what I'm doing. Won't be backing down.

And, I hasten to add, I'd never have found the need to assert and enforce these boundaries were it not for the aggressive behaviour of transactivists. If they don't like it, it's them that needs to do the reflecting, certainly not me.

As i saw pointed out by someone wiser than me on one of the threads the other day, the word transwoman suggests these people are a subset of women and they're not, they're a subset of men. Hence using TIMs. I hadn't thought of it like that before. As said before, look where being nice and using preferred terminology has got us.

'As i saw pointed out by someone wiser than me on one of the threads the other day, the word transwoman suggests these people are a subset of women and they're not, they're a subset of men'

Very good point.