Is it bullying to say trans women are men?

[WeeBisom]

I’d appreciate advice about this issue, because the last couple of days I feel like I’m going insane. I have a male partner who generally doesn’t give a shit about trans issues because, as he fully acknowledges, it doesn’t really affect or bother him. Fine. I mentioned to him that a member of the Labour Parry in the UK had been suspended for bullying and harassment. Her crime? She tweeted “trans women are men” and “women don’t have dicks”. My partner responded immediately with “well that’s a really mean thing for her to say, that sounds like bullying and harassment to me.”

I then replied that she didn’t actually target these statements at anyone in particular, and that, furthermore, her statements were just objective facts (especially if you replace man with male). I then asked how it could possibly be bullying to simply declare biological truths.

I shit you not, my partner (who is not an idiot), said that saying “trans women are men” is the same as (and I quote) saying “all Jewish people are thieves” or “fat people are stupid and ugly”.

I pointed out that it’s not the same thing at all, because his examples aren’t true! I then insisted he come up with an example of a true, generalised statement that counts as bullying.

I gave some examples to help : “people who are five feet tall and 400lbs are obese,” and “people with dwarfism are shorter than average”. He conceded these weren’t cases of bullying, but continued to insist that saying “trans women are men”is bullying. He could give no other example where making a statement of fact is also bullying. Funny how transgenderism is exceptional in so many regards.

I then pointed out that relating facts and truths are not intended to be bullying or hateful. It’s unfortunate that some trans people get upset by hearing truths, but unfortunately the facts are the facts. And he responded that rad fems know full well that trans people get upset by such statements, and misgendering, and to persist in these activities counts as bullying. He also highly doubted that rad fems are making these statements as neutral declarations of fact - he thinks it is an attack on trans people.

(By the way- he doesn’t really think trans women are women but goes along with it to be nice.)

What are your thoughts on this? Is it bullying to say trans women are men? And even if we are not intentionally aiming to hurt people, does it make a difference if people are hurt anyway?

I don’t think I’ve ever had to argue with anyone in real life that a TiM is a Man, they know it , my 76 year old FIL knows it, my 52 year old husband knows it and has always been as gender critical as me, my 27 year old daughter who is a STEM Teacher knows it, all her Teacher friends know it, her Social worker best friend knows it. It’s hardly a controversial thing 🤔

'Just ask him if he would have sex with a transwoman and if not why not.'

This. It should be even more powerful than the sports argument. And please do let us know what he says

Ask him if a transwoman left DNA at the scene of a crime, would it be male or female DNA?

Ask him to imagine we're 100 years in the future, and a transwoman's skeleton has been unearthed during an archaeological dig.

Will the scientists say they are a man or a woman?

I’m guessing the skeleton will be wearing a badge, and buried with a transcript of a long winded blog saying why they really really really are (crossed fingers) a woman (and how any museum mis labelling their bones will be sued/boycotted/burned down etc).

When you get down to the bare bones of it, biology doesn't lie.

What is the difference between a transwoman and a transvestite? And how do transsexuals fit into the piechart?

And would the SOCO or pathologist who described the DNA in their report be committing bullying if they described it as male DNA?

A lot of people would be offended by the generalised (and true) statement that large is merely a euphemism for fat (in a certain context) and we should start using the correct word.

Not really equivalent is it though - it's always considered rude to call someone fat when they are (in the UK) - it's not considered rude to call a man a man when they are.

If I was insisting on calling women.. I dunno.. bleeders.. then that would be equivalent to the fat remark.

I can't think of something similar - a rude way to say that someone's a man, there probably is one.

A dick.

It's only bullying if you do it to hurt other people's feeling as opposed to doing it to share your opinion.

A dick

needs to be more broad spectrum - I like how you're thinking though ;)

He argued that it could be bullying to call women “men” and to call men “women”. I agreed and then pointed out that if you call transwomen “men” that is the equivalent of calling a man a man!

Yes , I totally agree that addressing facts to individuals can be bullying. But to my mind simply making general statements that are facts is not bullying.

I think it is yes. Its rude and hurtful. There are ways to discuss how a trans womans experiences are different to that of someone who was born a woman... and i agree that it is important for feminism that there is some distinction so that people who were born female (inc trans men) can still discuss reproductive rights and oppression that they face due to having lived as a woman.
However to simply call someone who is telling you they feel they are a woman 'a man' is aggressive and hurtful and there is no need for it in my book.

Theres much discussion to be had about how people who were born with female productive systems and people who werent but identify as women, can support each other and hurling what is essentially abuse at each other is not beneficial.
I dont think trans women are the enemy and i dont think feminists are the enemy of trans women either.

Unfortunately the sex argument doesn’t work on him because he’s bisexual. He is genuinely one of those people that have no preferences in that regard. However, he does think the pressure from trans activists on gay men and lesbians is terrible. The weirdest thing to me is he doesn’t really believe trans women are women and he finds the whole thing incredibly confusing. But he’s super invested in being nice and supportive. I try and point out that eventually it won’t be considered “nice” to let homosexuals have same sex preferences... sigh. I guess the problem is he doesn’t really see how dangerous this issue is for gay and women’s rights. He seems to think that a rational compromise can be found, and we can all be nice about it. It’s pretty frustrating. I don’t think I’m going to discuss it with him anymore.

Lottapianos I tried that he said he wouldn't have sex with anyone but me so a silly question...

Some leftie liberal blokes are just absolutely determined to be right-on. I am scared because we hav three daughters. I have told him in no uncertain terms that he sides with them if there's ever a school trip "dick in room" issue, and he is at least prepared to be hypocritical in that instance. I feel very very upset and angry that he is so lackig critical thinking on this topic though. We have to just not discuss it any more.

I think stating something you know will upset someone but saying it anyway is bullying. I’m a teacher. I deal with kids saying ‘your dad’s dead’ repeatedly to other kids as bullying, it’s true, but it does no good to anyone to bring it up.

Similarly with ‘big nose’ insults ‘you failed the test’ style mocking. The nose is big, the test was failed, and yet, I put a stop to the bullying.

I do not agree with the radical trans agenda, however, all groups have a fringe/radical element, and I don’t decide my opinion or my actions based on those few, and I agree with your husband, being nice is important.

WeeBisom cross posted. DH isn't bisexual but other than that I could have written your post!

Tbf my DH did take the time to read around the subject but then undernined himself by citing Ireland as progressive in this regard. He didn't have an answer when I asked if they'd allow a transman (or a woman come to think of it) to self Id out of unwanted pregnancy...

moopointcows i totally agree with you. Even if you believe something to be the truth it is not always beneficial or appropriate to state it.

I accept that some TIM's are emotionally very fragile and find being called a man very painful. It would be bullying to keep pointing out a painful truth to a vulnerable individual (who probably needs therapy to help them accept reality). I suspect that these TIM's are not the ones who insist on pushing into women's spaces.
Until all this "trans women are women" bollocks started, I never felt the need to shout out "No they're fucking not".

MooPointCows I completely agree with everything you've written.

Transwomwn are men. It is a biological fact.

• women