Is it bullying to say trans women are men?

[WeeBisom]

I’d appreciate advice about this issue, because the last couple of days I feel like I’m going insane. I have a male partner who generally doesn’t give a shit about trans issues because, as he fully acknowledges, it doesn’t really affect or bother him. Fine. I mentioned to him that a member of the Labour Parry in the UK had been suspended for bullying and harassment. Her crime? She tweeted “trans women are men” and “women don’t have dicks”. My partner responded immediately with “well that’s a really mean thing for her to say, that sounds like bullying and harassment to me.”

I then replied that she didn’t actually target these statements at anyone in particular, and that, furthermore, her statements were just objective facts (especially if you replace man with male). I then asked how it could possibly be bullying to simply declare biological truths.

I shit you not, my partner (who is not an idiot), said that saying “trans women are men” is the same as (and I quote) saying “all Jewish people are thieves” or “fat people are stupid and ugly”.

I pointed out that it’s not the same thing at all, because his examples aren’t true! I then insisted he come up with an example of a true, generalised statement that counts as bullying.

I gave some examples to help : “people who are five feet tall and 400lbs are obese,” and “people with dwarfism are shorter than average”. He conceded these weren’t cases of bullying, but continued to insist that saying “trans women are men”is bullying. He could give no other example where making a statement of fact is also bullying. Funny how transgenderism is exceptional in so many regards.

I then pointed out that relating facts and truths are not intended to be bullying or hateful. It’s unfortunate that some trans people get upset by hearing truths, but unfortunately the facts are the facts. And he responded that rad fems know full well that trans people get upset by such statements, and misgendering, and to persist in these activities counts as bullying. He also highly doubted that rad fems are making these statements as neutral declarations of fact - he thinks it is an attack on trans people.

(By the way- he doesn’t really think trans women are women but goes along with it to be nice.)

What are your thoughts on this? Is it bullying to say trans women are men? And even if we are not intentionally aiming to hurt people, does it make a difference if people are hurt anyway?

A slightly different perspective which I’ve posted about before on these threads.

I work in a primary school in a pastoral and safeguarding role and recently completed the GIRES online training for schools on how to support transgender pupils. It was flawed training and raised many questions, one of which I put to our PSHE lead.

I asked what I would be expected to say if a boy identified as a girl and came to school with a new name and pronouns and one of this other children asked me, “So is Jack a girl now?”. I was told that under no circumstances would I be allowed to say “No”.

I can honestly say that if it gets to the point where I am required to lie to a child in order to keep my job, I will resign.

Jolly. I agree that the behaviour from TRAs is hideous, bullying, offensive etc. I can understand that there is a limit to how much people ‘can take’ before they snap. I empathise with people when this happens, because I understand why it does, but there is a difference between understanding a behaviour and saying it is fine to behave in that way.

'So is Jack a girl now?”. I was told that under no circumstances would I be allowed to say “No”.'

It's utter bullshit, isn't it? Gaslighting children and being forbidden from answering their questions honestly. How did we get to this point? I'm not surprised you're horrified by it. I work with children too and I just refuse to be a part of this madness

Im past the point of caring if TIMS are upset because people won't play along with their reinforcement of damaging gender stereotypes. collectively, their feelings getting hurt matters less than women's rights getting trampled all over. Saying a transwoman is a man is not bullying. Its the truth.

Saying it to a TIMs face in order to offend is obviously not acceptable but look where being nice and considerate got us all? We all need to keep speaking the biological truth even if it hurts peoples feelings. It really is something when a completely ordinary, left wing identifying, respectful of everyone individual like me who has no involvement in politics, is not on Twitter and has no social media profile to speak of is still afraid to say online that transwomen are male. even though its true.

Can you mandate belief?

It really feels like that's the way its going. There's this vice like pressure to make everyone accept the biological untrue. Like, if you make people say something enough they will accept it as true fact and never question the validity of it.

Germaine Greer said of course she would use female pronouns when addressing a transwoman out of curtesy but don't piss up my back and tell me its raining. I totally agree with this.

lotta

It is indeed utter bullshit.

Our PSHE lead now refuses to communicate with me on this issue and has told me I’m not permitted to share gender critical articles (such as the Sages factsheet and anything from Transgendertrend) with other staff. Unfortunately she told me after I’d shared said articles and of course I have no control over where they go after that ...

Here's an example of bullying:

"Women. All women. You must lie about yourselves and put your needs behind those of a man. Declare he is the same as you or I will denounce you and say you deserve negative social consequences. Supporting one man's lie about you is more important than a million women's truth about themselves."

That's bullying.
"Lie, or be punished."

It's bad enough that men prioritise a single man's assertion over many women's assertion. That tells you much about sexism and inequality.

But that men prioritise the right of a man to assert a LIE, over the right of many women to assert a TRUTH, tells you the depths to which they expect women to be subjugated.

And when that upheld man's lie, held over the dismissed women's truth relates to the fundamental existence of THE WOMEN THEMSELVES?

At that point you realise the depths to which men expect and demand women to crawl, deny and debase themselves in service of male ego.

You can tell your husband that he is the bully. It's just never been pointed out to him before.

God, Suburban, that's scary stuff.

Can you say 'Not exactly. Jack is what we call a transgirl, meaning that although Jack is male, Jack wants to be called 'she' and wear skirts and dresses like girls often do, and no one must jeer at Jack for doing that'?

dodo

That’s a good response but my query was what would we expect other children to do. We wouldn’t be allowed to say that Jack (probably with a new “female” name) is still male. That would be hurtful, apparently.

It may be that we never have to face this because we’re a primary school and it’s more of an issue at secondary. But we will probably have to amend our policies if the trans pressure groups have anything to do with it.

I’m itching to share the recent Times article where the clinical psychologist form the Tavistock is advising watchful waiting rather than rushing to label children as trans but I’d probably lose my job if I did.

But that men prioritise the right of a man to assert a LIE, over the right of many women to assert a TRUTH, tells you the depths to which they expect women to be subjugated.

That's a very good way of putting it.....

Its like saying "fat people are wobbly and sweaty!"

OK, objectively its true but is the smug satisfaction of loudly proclaiming it into the face of someone who will be deeply hurt by it achieving anything? If all it achieves is making the smug person feel good because theyve made someone else feel bad, then thats what bullying is.

Its like saying "fat people are wobbly and sweaty!"

Not sure - as that's no necessarily true. I'd say (as someone has upthread) it's more like saying "if you're 5'2" and you weigh 15 stone then you are overweight". Yes, it's not kind to go up to said person and say "you're overweight, you are" and to do so repeatedly would be bullying. But if they say "I'm a thin person and I'm underweight", it would be factually accurate to disagree with them.

Since when is stating a biological fact bullying?

Suburban, would it help if several of us wrote to ask our school's current policy, as concerned parents who have been following this in the news?

I suspect I'm already 'that parent', and they can't fire me for it, so...

Since when is stating a biological fact bullying?

It can be! Depends on context. Saying to someone, randomly, "you're overweight" is unkind. It's likely to make them feel bad. Same as getting on the tube, seeing a trans woman and shouting "You're a man".

But if someone is saying that someone with XY chromosomes is a woman, then I agree - it's just a statement of fact.

NataliaOsipova I dont think its the same, saying "overweight" is nowhere near as emotionally-charged a thing to say, its almost emotionally non-existent by comparison. I'd say it would be more comparable to say "all fat people are wobbly" or "all gay people are faggots", its the hurt felt by the people you are saying it to that needs to be taken into account when looking for comparisons.

Is it bullying to force me to disconnect my childhood where I had a brother and now tell me that actually I was wrong and that I must erase all memory of that and tell everyone that I have a sister?

You see the problem I have, is when people in polite conversation ask you if you have any brothers or sisters. Its an innocent enough question, but when you start to expand it, you run into comparisons with other people and their experiences of life. You can only get so far, with it before you have to make the choice of telling lies or admit that you have a trans sibling.

At which point you SEE a visual reaction, and often have an expression of pity and/or sympathy even in the most liberal of people.

I'm yet to tell anyone who isn't surprised.

So if I say that transwomen are men, am I telling the truth or am I being a bully? If I say transwomen are women am I being bullied and forced into a lie that betrays the reality of my life?

The problem is that whatever I do, its seemingly wrong. I either choose to express my experience of life or I choose to expose my sibling as trans which according to transcult, is to discriminate.

Psychologically I choose the former for myself. As much as anything I don't think it helpful or healthy to build relationships with others on the basis of concealing my childhood. It is part of my life. If I ignore it and deny it, it becomes the elephant in the room.

The bottom line is, when you start telling lies, you only have two choices: to admit the truth or to continue telling more and more lies, which increasingly get bigger and bigger.

Its only sustainable to a point. At which point you have a crunch point.

This is what all people who repeat transwomen are women are doing. Repeating the lie, making it bigger and bigger.

The further you get from the truth, the harder it is to go back on all those lies. The truth eventually is hidden under a multitude of lies you can no longer be consistent with nor remember or deny. But it doesn't go away.

No amount of bullying will change that. Instead it fundamentally destroys trust and respect. That's what makes it toxic.

That's a great idea, dodo.

Our LA hasn’t written its own guidance yet but our schools have been sent the Scottish guidance with the implication that we’re expected to follow suit.

Btw, the lack of support for families dealing with the crap and mindfuckery that this creates is terrible.

How does the department of education reconcile that if they have TWO children from the same family to deal with? The trans gender one and the one who is being told that what they think to be true they should now lie about.

Tell me its not psychologically a risk.

For the people for whom kindness is their major concern - is being kind more important than maintaining sex segregated spaces for women?

This is the thing. It's not for me. So yes, sometimes I say things which are no doubt perceived as "unkind". But it's so crucial to able to name the problem. To be "kind" as far as many transactivists believe, women would never mention their bodies or female specific issues where a trans person might hear about it. I think this attitude is not only objectively "unkind" but deeply oppressive, and I will fight it with every last breath in my body.

What about the kids who won't play along. Who stand there in the head teacher's office saying "I know Mr Smith says that he's Mrs Smith now but he still looks like Mr Smith to me"? Kids do have a tendency to loudly proclaim what they believe to be the truth no matter how strongly adults object.

Because I’m not going along with THAT lie.

No. Nor am I.

This is what all people who repeat transwomen are women are doing. Repeating the lie, making it bigger and bigger.

YY. And I am not prepared to do it. I don't think it was wrong for the Canadian lady to make her sign, or for Venice Allan to make those posts, however blunt or "unkind" that might be, and anyone who cares about truth, reality and free speech should fight for their rights to do so.

Its not about one lie. Its about the next lie you have to tell to maintain the first. And the next and the next.