Is it bullying to say trans women are men?

[WeeBisom]

I’d appreciate advice about this issue, because the last couple of days I feel like I’m going insane. I have a male partner who generally doesn’t give a shit about trans issues because, as he fully acknowledges, it doesn’t really affect or bother him. Fine. I mentioned to him that a member of the Labour Parry in the UK had been suspended for bullying and harassment. Her crime? She tweeted “trans women are men” and “women don’t have dicks”. My partner responded immediately with “well that’s a really mean thing for her to say, that sounds like bullying and harassment to me.”

I then replied that she didn’t actually target these statements at anyone in particular, and that, furthermore, her statements were just objective facts (especially if you replace man with male). I then asked how it could possibly be bullying to simply declare biological truths.

I shit you not, my partner (who is not an idiot), said that saying “trans women are men” is the same as (and I quote) saying “all Jewish people are thieves” or “fat people are stupid and ugly”.

I pointed out that it’s not the same thing at all, because his examples aren’t true! I then insisted he come up with an example of a true, generalised statement that counts as bullying.

I gave some examples to help : “people who are five feet tall and 400lbs are obese,” and “people with dwarfism are shorter than average”. He conceded these weren’t cases of bullying, but continued to insist that saying “trans women are men”is bullying. He could give no other example where making a statement of fact is also bullying. Funny how transgenderism is exceptional in so many regards.

I then pointed out that relating facts and truths are not intended to be bullying or hateful. It’s unfortunate that some trans people get upset by hearing truths, but unfortunately the facts are the facts. And he responded that rad fems know full well that trans people get upset by such statements, and misgendering, and to persist in these activities counts as bullying. He also highly doubted that rad fems are making these statements as neutral declarations of fact - he thinks it is an attack on trans people.

(By the way- he doesn’t really think trans women are women but goes along with it to be nice.)

What are your thoughts on this? Is it bullying to say trans women are men? And even if we are not intentionally aiming to hurt people, does it make a difference if people are hurt anyway?

As I get older, I realise how “people pleasing” by indulging/trying not to hurt someone’s feelings “in the short term” is actually often a really horrid thing to do.

If you have a 2:2 in media studies however your course tutor told you you’re “desired by employers”, you’re not as employable or respected as someone with a Cambridge 1st in engineering.

I am “averagely attractive” and if I post a good photo on social media and someone says “Meghan Markle step aside” that doesn’t mean I should dump DP and start waiting for Harry.

Heterosexual men don’t desire transwomen, however much make-up and however many dresses and heels they put on.

Normal women don’t want to get naked and share a changing room with penises and deep voices.

Twitter and social media is an “echo chamber” and millions of people will do online “high fives” and “you go GIRL what do those nasty TERFs know”. If a transwoman requires real, tangible physical assistance none of these social media fangirls or fanboys will care.

It’s not kind to sell people a lie, especially if they’re mentally vulnerable anyway.

Hurty feelings? A generation of wet willy wimps (as my mother would say). I say ‘grow a pair balls/ovaries and get over yourself’.

The world is going to hell in a handcart and some are squealing over what knickers they choose to wear and if they can decide to be male/female/both/neither/undecided or unsure.

I agree that saying something that you know will upset someone can be bullying, in some circumstances. For example, if I were to work with a transwoman, it would be bullying if I kept on pointing out that transwomen are women, when the person in question was just trying to get on with their job. In the same way that if I worked with someone who was very large it would be bullying and terribly cruel if I kept making comments about obesity - the fact it's true is irrelevant, it's still unnecessary bullying behaviour. However, in a situation where a transwoman is trying to act as if they are a biological woman (eg. the recent smear test example where a female patient asked for a female nurse and found it being offered by a transwoman) then I think it would be appropriate to point out that transwomen are in fact men. If we can't say what the problem is, how can it be dealt with?

I find it very hurtful when men keep telling me that my sex is a feeling in their head or a sexist stereotype I've been fighting all my life. I find the appropriation of womenhood rude, frightening and very upsetting. Does your h care about my feelings of the feelings of other women who are upset over this or is it just men who matter, again.

I think stating something you know will upset someone but saying it anyway is bullying. I’m a teacher. I deal with kids saying ‘your dad’s dead’ repeatedly to other kids as bullying, it’s true, but it does no good to anyone to bring it up.

But what you don’t do is instruct the other kids that they must all pretend the kid’s dad is still alive, and suspend any who won’t.

A fuckload of transwomen seem to be autogynaphiles as well, getting some kick out of getting women to squirm as they acknowledge them as women and starting talking about breasts and undies and issues with make up, because y’know, that’s what women are like, amirite?

@Sarahjconnor. Do share!

I'd be highly unlikely to say "You are a man" to an individual person. If it was one of the violent misogynist TRAs, I'd have disengaged long before it got to that point. And if it was a nice enough trans person, I'd avoid being outright hurtful to them as an individual, even though my perception of them is entirely different to theirs of themselves.

But I don't see it as bullying to say "Transwomen are men" as a general assertion. That's a political/ideological/biological position. Not bullying.

But Jewish people are not in fact all thieves, and fat people are not all stupid, these are objectively verifiable facts. Trans women not being men, on the other hand, is a belief. Biologically they're male, and "man" is the neutral descriptive term for an adult human male. The demand that a person's subjective feeling that they aren't the sex that they appear to be should override the evidence of everyone else's senses is basically a demand that the rest of society adopt that person's quasi religious/spiritual beliefs (what is gender identity if not a soul of sorts?), and other people have the right to say no.

It's not "bullying" not to go along with someone else's religious beliefs. You can say "I don't think God exists" to a believer without being called a mean horrible bully. IMO that's because religious people have a lot more faith in what they're saying than people who assert that trans women are women do. People know that what they're saying isn't literally true, what they're demanding is that you lie to avoid hurting people's feelings. In most other contexts it would be considered acceptable to refuse, so why isn't it acceptable in this one?

It might be polite not to say a truth that might hurt someone's feelings to them directly, in the same way you'd avoid saying any thing that you know might upset someone if you like them, but there's a huge difference between choosing to be kind to people who you care about and being required to refrain from stating facts when discussing important social issues. And it's very telling that the demands to put politeness above everything else are being aimed mostly at women.

Once again it is a belief that no one believes but you must not say so because 2nd rule of misogyny: Women saying no to men is a hate crime.
Can you mandate belief?
Can you codify into law the idea that some people can mind over matter themselves out of material reality and into the opposite sex and must be treated accordingly?
It is like transubstantiation. A belief that no one actually believes.
Will you allow people to drug and mutilate children based on this belief that no one believes?

Whilst I rarely agree with the gender critical arguments put forward on this board (including those about women being socialised to be kind/nice), I dislike the ‘blokes in a dress’ and ‘women don’t have ‘dicks comments’. I think they communicate an intent to offend/hurt. I think they come from a place of anger and frustration, which I identify with, but are counterproductive to encouraging people to understand the source of the frustration.
‘Being a woman is not a costume’/you cannot become a women by wearing certain clothes is likely to communicate the point more effectively.
I think the principles of mediation have generally applicability when discussing opposing views and conflicting needs. This is not about being ‘nice’ or socialisation. It is about dealing with problems effectively

That should have said rarely disagree! I am gender critical!

It depends how it's said. Context is everything.

E.g. If someone met a transwoman and then rather than being polite and getting on with whatever was being done decided to ridicule the transwoman fro having a penis and say 'yeh but you're a man not a woman' then I would say that is bullying and harrassment.

If there is a debate about womens rights and some idiot is trying to argue thay chromosomes have nothing to do with being biologically male.or.female and are doing the whole double think stupidity of trans activists then pointing out thay trans women are biologically male is perfectly reasonable.

I'm.of the view that if someone chooses to dress as the opposite sex then fine, knock themselbes out but don't erode women's rights, don't claim to be a biological woman/more female than biological women, don't chat crap about how sanitary care isn't just for biological women, don't tell me maternity services should cater for trans women who can't be pregnant, don't call.me a cis woman, and don't try to mansplain being a woman to me.
Do any of the above and I will.point out that a trans woman is biologically male and therefore does nto fundamentally share in many of the elements of a womans experience.

It's not bullying to tell the truth but it can be unkind.

Breast milk is the biological norm

That statement is another true one that would get people's hackles up if published with no context on social media.

These tweets must have some context.

We've had months now of radical Trans talking all sorts of shite. I expect this woman was exasperated and just thought fuck it, Im telling it like it is.

For the people for whom kindness is their major concern - is being kind more important than maintaining sex segregated spaces for women?

It’s bullying to make people say x is y (with threats if they don’t whether it be deliberately to goad, by choice or by a slip of the tongue).

You don’t even need to explain that to a small child.

I agree with @msbeaujangles. I believe that there are scenarios where someone’s sex, rather than identified gender, is determinative. I despise the TRA bullying and silencing of women.

But for all of that, I also believe many transwomen do genuinely suffer from gender dysphoria, and I can’t imagine how horrible that must be. I do believe in showing kindness eg preferred pronouns etc. Saying “transwomen are men” on a placard is unnecessary in my opinion. Moreover though, it plays into this narrative the TRAs peddle that gender critics feminists are nasty bigots, whereas actually the majority want to see transfolk treated with dignity and respect but also want to maintain sex based protections.

I believe signs like that may alienate people from our cause.

This has been playing on my mind, and, honestly, it's rude and bullying to keep saying that transwomen are women - to want to redefine a word that has always described me.

Just like most people would think I was a bit off if I moved to Wales and started telling everyone I was Welsh (I'm not), and it was discriminatory to only speak to me in Welsh because I'm the type of Welsh person who only speaks English.

I dislike the ‘blokes in a dress’ and ‘women don’t have ‘dicks comments’. I think they communicate an intent to offend/hurt.

Calling women cis and terf is designed to hurt and offend. Telling someone to die in a fire is extremely offensive. I would never dream of telling a TIM in real life that they are really a man but they are. Its true. I don't really care if the truth hurts TRAs.

When I try to think of scenarios in which a woman might feel the need to tell a trans woman that he's a man the only situations that I can come up with are ones in which the trans woman is attempting to piss all over the woman's boundaries and the woman is trying to reassert them or to defend herself. Like, lesbian facing off against a trans woman who won't take no for an answer? She might say "but you're a woman". Or, trans woman is insisting that a woman undresses in a shared open space? She might say "but you're really a man". When would it come up in a normal conversation where boundaries aren't being pushed? It's not like you're going to be at Starbucks and the person taking your order is a trans woman and when they ask your name you say "it's Susan, and by the way you're a man".

Lesbian might say "but you're a man" rather. Unless she'd already learned that not saying "of course you're a woman" led to screaming or violence.

It's not bullying in the context in the OP.

If someone stood infront of an individual transwomen and said those things it would be rude and could be construed as bullying.

I'm a gender critical feminist who is concerned about self I'D and erosion of womens rights, concerned that people think they have to change rather than been happy to be gender non conforming. But I would call Caitlin Jenner Caitlin to her face and refer to her as she. However if she asked me if I thought she was a woman I would say no.