Women who don’t be believed for their reasons not to BF - a feminist issue?

[Bluedoglead]

Bear with me, I’ve posted this here because I don’t think it’s a feminist issue and I want to unpick my thoughts.

I struggle with my reasons for not BF one of my children.

I was put in a position where the decision was out of my hands.

I do think the comments around “did you try could have tried different should have tried that” are almost victim blaming and they make me very very angry and feel disbelieved.

I attempted suicide due to the horrendous time I had feeding that child. There was eons of support. I did the absolute best I could.

So why am I not just believed?

Please bear with me.My thoughts in this I find distressing and I’m trying to understand and unpick how I feel.

You're right, OP, women aren't believed. It's like all those women who tell the midwife they're in second labour, and the midwife turns them away saying, "don't be silly, you're nowhere near second stage" yet and then they go away and give birth 10 minutes later. (There was a good piece about this in the Guardian last week.) Or they say they're in a lot of pain, and the midwife says, You can't be, you're not far enough along.

The Skeptical OB writes a blog that can essentially be summed up as an attack on people who promote natural childbirth and breastfeeding. (It's a difficult read if you're hoping for a moderately expressed view!) She argues that the claim that the vast majority of women can breastfeed is completely untrue, and that a substantial minority simply don't produce enough milk.

I've had three children and have never met a "breastfeeding tyrant". I have though been told by other women, countless times, while I was breastfeeding, that they couldn't do it because it was too tiring or painful for them. I never sought this information, they just offered it up as I started to feed, like they felt they had to say something to imply that I was doing something that they had been deprived of. But I also have been through pnd, anaemia and exhaustion, mastitis, and abscesses that got so bad I was visiting my local hospital every couple of days to have pus drained from my breasts through huge syringes - I have scars from that. I breastfed throughout. It got easier as I learned how to do it. I don't judge anyone for not breastfeeding but it is infuriating to be told that someone 'couldnt' do it 'because it hurt' as if I didn't experience pain too, as if all women who breastfeed are just 'lucky' that it 'took'. Breastfeeding is hard work, especially at the beginning. It can hurt, a lot, excruciatingly so, when you haven't learned how to do it properly, and there is a lack of support to learn how. I had about five minutes of talk at me during an ante natal group about it in my first pregnancy - that was it. I had no help in the hospital after c section when I was struggling - they just gave me an electric pump with basic instructions and left me to it when the pain was bad. When I had mastitis and then abscesses I was given antibiotics and then the pus draining treatment, but no support was offered in learning to feed better. They just said it would get better or I could stop if I wanted to. No support at all was offered during my later pregnancies and birth, no ante natal group, no breastfeeding advice - after I'd done it all once it was assumed I didnt need further support, even though the first time round I ended up with all these issues plus pnd that totally wiped me out. I feel like continuing to feed has been a hard won achievement for me, that has been hugely rewarding with all of my children, but I also feel like I have to bite my lip and never mention any of it so I don't hurt the feelings of those women who say they 'just couldn't'. I really don't care if someone chose not to breastfeed, tbh. I think it's sad that some women believe they had no option to breastfeed because of bad advice or lack of support, and I think those services need to improve. But if you chose not to breastfeed, I don't care, I don't need to hear about it, and I really don't need to hear about how you suffered for a few days trying before you gave it up because you weren't 'lucky' like me. I wasn't lucky. I worked at it. I don't blame anyone for deciding not to - I found it hard and painful and exhausting and emotionally traumatic for months! I don't blame anyone for choosing not to go through that! However I did choose to continue and I don't regret it at all, in the end I loved doing it and I think it was a good choice for me and my kids. The idea that women at a baby group are being judgmental when they offer advice or offer to listen - it is just projection imo, from women who aren't sure of the choices they made and are looking for someone to deflect blame on to. If they needed more support, they should join breastfeeding women in advocating for that, otherwise they need to own their choices and stop casting around for a 'breastfeeding mafia' to cast blame on.

Hackmum that happened to me in labour, no one would listen. I was in agony but gas and air was helping just about. This woman told me my labour wasnt progressing so they were going to put me on a ward and i wouldnt be able to have gas and air and couldnt have pain relief for a couple of hours. I burst into tears and she was telling me to calm down!!
I went to the toilet and ended up screaming down the corridor for my husband because i needed to push and i thought i was going to push him out down the loo! They managed to get me in a room and on a bed and i pushed him out! They really need to start listening, you know your own body!

Just because you haven't experienced it, @Rosenberg, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Again, women's experiences are wholly disbelieved. There absolutely fucking is a judgemental breastfeeding mafia out there. You just didn't encounter it because you breastfed.

People on other threads have described being in an anti-breastfeeding atmosphere or people making comments about it being disgusting, or inappropriate, or whatever. I've never encountered that but I would never suggest to someone that they were imagining it or making it up the way you just have. If there's no judgement about women who don't bf, why do you think so many of them feel the need to come up with what you consider weak excuses why they didn't? Think about it. If there was truly no judgement they'd feel able just say they didn't or chose not to and that would be it.

And it's fucking hard to "own" your choice when it wasn't really a choice, which in many cases it isn't, however pathetic you think those women are because they weren't as dedicated and saintly a mother as you.

I had NO milk supply. I tried so hard but when I’m 24 hours post birth and my son is starting to shake because he isn’t getting enough milk I’m going to give him formula! What’s the other option- watch him starve slowly!? I tried to express too but for whatever reason I just didn’t have anything there.

I felt rubbish enough about it I didn’t need anyone telling or judging me. My midwife was lovely and said it didn’t matter he was gaining weight and thriving and was a healthy baby and that’s all that matters. I was very lucky that my midwife was massively supportive

Women discussing breastfeeding and ways of making it easier are not invalidating women who don't breastfeed. If women around me had talked more about it I may not have struggled as much and become so ill. No one should expect women not to share experiences and discussion about breastfeeding because they themselves didn't do it, it's grim that women like me are made to feel like we should be silent about these issues in case it hurts someone else's feelings. Women who discuss breastfeeding are not tyrants or a mafia invalidating other women's experiences.

Have you actually read what people are describing? Why is it "grim" that women like you can't discuss breastfeeding with women who have already said they don't or can't? What exactly do you hope to get from that conversation?

You can discuss breastfeeding with all the other women who want to talk about it, which is, based on my experience, absolutely hoardes of you.

Not breastfeeding (particularly in public) is the norm. Especially past six months, and those of us who do it past twelve months get endless comments about when we plan to stop, 'don't you think they're a bit old for that', etc. Some people are judgmental no matter what women do, either way. That is the culture we live in. But referring to women who (might) talk about breastfeeding as tyrants and a mafia is a cruel passive aggressive trick intended to silence.

I would never refer to women talking about bf as tyrants or mafia. I refer to women pushing unsolicited advice, inaccurate scaremongering or judgements of a woman's parenting based on the way she is feeding her baby as tyrants and mafia. All my friends and family bf. All of them. I wouldn't call them a bf mafia because they have the social awareness to understand that I don't want their "helpful" suggestions about things I could have tried harder at or done differently.

If it's not ok to make endless comments towards bf women (it isn't), why on earth do you feel it's ok for ff women to experience the same. Many of them do, whatever your experience where you live. You may choose not to believe us but you are wrong.

I don't understand why you can't pick your audience Rosenberg.
I don't see how It helps a woman who has struggled but succeeded to breastfeed to announce all of her struggles to a woman who struggled and didn't succeed.
It's amazing that you persevered through all of that but what do you get out of sharing that woth a woman who had PND triggered by an inability to feed how she had wanted? Why is it grim that you're not able to do that?
That's what we are discussing here. How to approach woman who have tried and tried and tried but for whatever reason breastfeeding hasn't worked out. We aren't saying not to talk about it or keep it all his hush. We've been talking about vulnerable women and how to help them.
OP has said that it was very negative for her to have people disbelieve her and having to discuss her private issues with people who think there must be a magic solution - for her there wasn't. Your (albeit huge) struggles with feeding have no relation to her baby who need a high calorie formula. When she's feeling so devastated that her milk wasn't enough it is not helpful or kind to say well you know what I had a really shit time too but I did it regardless.

Rosenberg, I don't think anyone has said that women who breastfeed shouldn't talk about it. What is being discussed is the questioning and disbelief of women who say they couldn't.

OurMiracle your statement that you didn’t have any milk 24 hours post birth is a classic example of what people on this thread are stating as misinformation. I don’t know your circumstances of course but your milk does not come in 24 hours after birth. It can take 4 days. Babies live on meconium until milk comes in. This is exactly the sort of comment that people are referring to as to why women are not believed when they say they couldn’t b/f, because no one has milk 24 hours post birth.

Do you mean colostrum?

No woman should ever but judged on the decision not to BF, regardless of the reason. I had planned to breast feed my son and express so DP could help with night feeds etc. but my son was born 6 weeks early and my milk hadn't come in. I decided then it would be best to keep him on formula (he was tube fed formula for the first week) rather than try to make him breast feed when I didn't know if I could produce enough. In the hospital I was made to feel ashamed by the nurses and doctors for not even trying to BF but I was still distressed by the birth (and the fact I was told by the midwife that I almost died after giving birth) but family and friends supported my decision and didn't say anything about trying to give it a go, I'd made my mind up and it hasn't done my son any problems. For what it's worth, I believe you op - try to ignore people who act negatively about the subject.

hahaha yes I mean colostrum! I’ve got poo on the brain this morning after dealing with an explosion!

"And it's fucking hard to "own" your choice when it wasn't really a choice, which in many cases it isn't"

But this is what I am saying.

I don't talk about it, offline, because I have no wish to hurt other women's feelings. But it does piss me off because I have feelings too, and I have stuff I want to talk about, and there may be women who would benefit from hearing that stuff (I would have) - but none of that seems to matter! I don't understand why, if someone doesn't want to be in a conversation about breastfeeding, they don't just stay out of the conversation. Go somewhere else, or do something else. Let women who need to talk, talk. If someone offers unsolicited advice, ignore it or take it, depending on its value to you. Not all unsolicited advice has no value. If someone asks you questions you aren't comfortable with, say you don't want to discuss it. There is a vast silence around breastfeeding, and feminism should be breaking through that. Women offering advice and discussing their experiences is not invalidating and it isn't disbelief in other women's stories. I don't disbelieve women who say they couldnt for whatever reason. I believe them that they believe that, iyswim, I'm not looking for holes in their stories or whatever - I don't judge them at all, neither do I judge women who just didn't want to, it's their body and their choice. But I don't see why I have to repeatedly bite my lip and never talk about breastfeeding because it might upset someone else, or risk being referred to as a tyrant or a 'victim blamer' or part of a mafia fgs. The OP claims that when women offer her their experiences/advice that it is because they don't believe her and they are victim blaming her. It seems more likely to me that those women had their own struggles with breastfeeding and are sharing what they learned with her. Maybe their advice has no value to her, but it doesn't mean they are tyrants!

Yes but why do you need to talk to the women we are discussing in this thread?

Also the repeated accusatory and aggressive comments the OP has directed at other women here, especially at Bertrand, are why I decided to share my own story. This discussion began with the OP accusing and insulting other women as being victim blamers etc merely for talking about breastfeeding to her. And avoiding that sort of aggression and lashing out is why women like me tend to stay silent about stuff we really should be talking about.

You've read a thread full of women saying how distressing they've found being questioned over their choices, you've read how distressed they've been to be told "oh if only you tried harder", you've read that the OP was pushed to the point of attempting suicide over her struggles to feed and still decided to come in to complain that you're not allowed to tell these women that you struggled but still succeeded. I get it, you were amazing, you pushed through a ridiculous amount of hurdles to BF but that information isn't helpful to a woman who gave up last week because for whatever reason those struggles were too much for her, they aren't helpful.to a woman who's poorly baby needed more than she could give. There should be a place for you to discuss your success but a group of women with PND or other problems because they couldnt do what you did really isnt the right forum.

JJ in the last few posts I’ve just read 2 startling bits of false info that highlights exactly what Bertrand and Rosenberg are saying.
1.milk should come it 24 hours after birth

1. Baby born early so milk ‘hadn’t come in’

I actually thought this before I had my baby (also early). I had no idea that lactation will happen when the baby gets born rather than when you are full term. No one ever explained that I could still feed even though my dd was early until they started pumping my breast to get the Colostrum (not meconium!) This sort of misinformation is actually dangerous (especially for premies) and takes choices away from women.

But I don't see why I have to repeatedly bite my lip and never talk about breastfeeding because it might upset someone else, or risk being referred to as a tyrant or a 'victim blamer' or part of a mafia fgs.

You don't have to do any of these things. For the umpteenth time, CHOOSE YOUR AUDIENCE. Why is the onus on me as someone who tried and failed to breastfeed and is extremely raw about that to remove myself from situations like baby groups, rather than the onus being on you as someone who tried and succeeded to show a little empathy and social awareness and realise that the conversation might be better had with the woman on the other side of you who is also successfully feeding?

It does but lecturing a woman who is several months postpartum and who has already regretfully stopped BFing about it is not helpful, in some cases it's harmful. If you're already depressed that you "couldnt" feed and are then told actually you could have so you didn't even have a valid reason to stop, I don't think it's a bit leap to see how that could make the mother more distressed.
The NHS has failed these women, they should be told the correct information when pregnant and immediately after birth. Not once its too late! At that point it does no good at all.

@Bertrand It's not though. It's not what you're saying - you have saying I should have had more bf support or been prepared for the difficulties or tried differently to succeed. I actually think I'd be a terrible mother if I'd opted to continue trying to bf at the expense of my mental health and ability to care for my baby for the sake of bf (which was likely to have zero benefits for her compared to ff. The benefits are at a population level not to individual children).
As it is, I already feel appalling for dragging it on as long as I did because of my misguided beliefs about the negatives of formula feeding. I "chose" to stop, but the alternative was awful so it wasn't much of a choice. No amount of support or normalising bf or being in a pro bf environment or the things you rightly want to encourage would have made a difference to me because that's already the reality for me where I live and in my social circle.