Women who don’t be believed for their reasons not to BF - a feminist issue?

[Bluedoglead]

Bear with me, I’ve posted this here because I don’t think it’s a feminist issue and I want to unpick my thoughts.

I struggle with my reasons for not BF one of my children.

I was put in a position where the decision was out of my hands.

I do think the comments around “did you try could have tried different should have tried that” are almost victim blaming and they make me very very angry and feel disbelieved.

I attempted suicide due to the horrendous time I had feeding that child. There was eons of support. I did the absolute best I could.

So why am I not just believed?

Please bear with me.My thoughts in this I find distressing and I’m trying to understand and unpick how I feel.

www.mamanatural.com/lactation-cookie-recipe/

Do notice. The line that says “there are no definitive studies” and yet if I had a pound forevery time someone told me to try a lactation cookie ...

Heartofglass: "I went to the toilet and ended up screaming down the corridor for my husband because i needed to push and i thought i was going to push him out down the loo! They managed to get me in a room and on a bed and i pushed him out! They really need to start listening, you know your own body!"

I know the discussion's moved on, but just wanted to acknowledge your post. That's really awful. But also really common, I think. What a relief that you managed to get to a bed in time.

That is bizarre. I’ve never heard of them. They strike me as being in the same category as chocolates that help you ‘lose weight’. I do think bluedog and accrual you might have been really unlucky with the hpc’s you’ve had/met. The things you’re descibing just don’t sound very normal within the nhs.

Rumple. Even your last post I’ve never heard of them = (when I was unwell) I think you Made them up

Not normal within = I don’t beleive you

Bluedog - rumpled literally is saying she haven't heard of them. I haven't either. That is discussion, the sharing of information, it is not accusing anyone of lying.

Rumpel saying it is not normal within the NHS is acknowledging that you have experienced something which is not right and (hopefully) unusual.

I think that your experiences and the trauma you have experienced may be making it very difficult for you to hear other people speaking without interpreting their words as a personal attack on yourself.

When you consider the breastfeeding rates of the UK vs other countries I think many people who 'couldn't' breastfeed probably could have with the correct help or the will to do so. I say that as someone who "failed". I don't think that's really arguable.

However I do think it's a feminist issue that anyone actually gives a shit or that women feel they need to justify their choices.

Once the child is weaned his dad can let him spend 20 years on nuggets and people would think he was a great father for trying

Bluedog I was saying that I’ve never heard of them so they’re not something that’s routinely advised by the nhs. I was sympathising with you that they sound completely ridiculous! Of course a bloody cookie can’t help you breastfeed. I don’t think your experiences of hpcs are common place, that does not mean that I disbelieve you. I don’t think you sound like you’re in a place to have a rational conversation so I’m going to leave this thread now. I’m sorry for that but I do hope you find some sort of closure for the ordeal you’ve been through.

This is a very strange thread in my opinion I've skipped out a couple of pages but I wanted to say that I have been on breastfeeding threads with Bert in the past and reacted much the same way you did Op, thinking that any promotion or discussion of the benefits of breastfeeding was a criticism of those who couldn't or didn't. I truly don't think Bert was attacking you in any way. Your thread asked if breastfeeding could be a feminist issue. Bert tried to answer that, not making any comment on your personal situation.

I took against bert on previous threads because I took discussion over the benefits of breastfeeding as personal slight against those who couldn't .However that was a few months ago and I've since come to terms with the fact that I couldn't breastfeed. The breast is best message is very damaging to women who are suffering after a traumatic birth such as I had, however it's an important distinction to make that somebody saying that breastmilk is best is not attacking mothers who couldn't breastfeed. Sometimes formula is best for both mother and baby.

In my case I knew that having a mother who was not suffering from a mental breakdown was more important to my child than breast milk. The problem is that is such an emotive subject and tied up for me within a traumatic birth in which I nearly lost my child. The way i saw it initially was that i failed to carry him to term and also failed to breastfeed. Now I can see that my decisions when I was in the most stressful and harrowing time of my life have actually helped my child to thrive and it was absolutely the right decision to make. I hope that you can soon come to terms with the fact that you couldn't breastfeed and that if any nosey people ask you about it just tell them you don't want to talk about it. Counselling helped me immensely and I would really urge you to look in to see whether there is any provision in your local area for maternal counselling.

I think the best thing you could do for yourself in real life is if someone starts talking about breastfeeding just shut it down. Change the subject. Its not helpful to you.

Rosen I KNOW - that’s why I said when I wasn’t well.

I struggle with my reasons for not BF one of my children.

I was put in a position where the decision was out of my hands.

I truly think this is the wrong board, because you are struggling, as you say in your OP, and this knowledge will either stifle feminist debate out of concern for your feelings, or will lead to you feeling attacked when the debate does happen.

As you have said, the decision was taken out of your hands. It was not your choice.

My first child failed to gain weight at an approved rate, and fell off the centiles graph completely. I was pressured by the hv, the gp and a paediatrician to accept that my breastfeeding was inadequate. She weighed less than 11 pounds at 6 months old, if I recall correctly. She was officially labelled failure to thrive. They tried to take the decision out of my hands too. Awful time.

I understand what it is to blame oneself, and to feel inadequate.

I'd say my feminist perspective is for women to have proper support, factual information, and practical help to succeed in their choices. We deserve professionals in real life who are invested in really digging deep into the mechanics of breastfeeding.
I'd also say I wouldn't co-opt others into declaring that my choices are the right choices for others.

Should every woman who says "I couldnt breastfeed" be believed?
Their choice should be unquestioned.
Their reasons should be respected as private if that is their wish, no probing or demands to justify.
If a woman's perception of 'couldnt' effectively means 'the outcome of my efforts was completely unacceptable to me" then yes, couldn't can be 100% believed.
Couldn't means different things to different people.
Lots of people would characterise my personal experience as couldn't. Some explicitly did characterise it that way.
To me it was could.

For me I had an opposite experience to many here. I found Brest feeding excruciatingly painful and DD would feed for hours and never get full. HCPs just saw my distress and told me to bottle feed'. Nobody was willing to put in the time and effort to help me to bf successfully. I got there in the end but I would never have another child because of it. The 'help' available to support bfing is atrocious. Which isn't to say that mums shouldn't be supported if they don't want to bf. All new mums' are treated like shit ime.

I agree with you OP that it's a feminist issue. Women are expected to battle through breastfeeding when it's not working for them (and by "not working for them", I mean everything from too painful/tiring/uncomfortable, to baby not putting on weight, to mastitis etc) and put themselves last. Which is exactly what we're socialised to always do. Put ourselves last, in everything, always.

I breastfed, but I absolutely don't believe I should have to the extent I did. I do not think the hell I put myself through was any benefit to me or my baby. It would have been much more beneficial to him to have had 50% formula.

But unfortunately women's health (mental and physical) is considered so unimportant, especially postpartum, but also at other times.

Like the mesh implant scandal, and pain relief in childbirth, and dismissing women in labour, refusing CS to those who want them, pushing BF when it's not working for them, to the number of women who have to live with gynae and bladder issues afterwards.

All feminist issues, IMO.

Ah thanks @hackmum, i didnt realise until i posted how long it was lol.
OP I believe you. I really hope you have access to counselling, or at least someone to talk to

OP I’ve experienced both sides. With my first I couldn’t bf. I produced no milk. Nobody believed me, not even the midwives & health visitors. Turned out I had a health problem that affected the hormones that make milk (among other things). By then it was too late, the guilt kicked in and I’d already been told by a lactivist that it would’ve been kinder to allow my baby to die than give her formula. For YEARS I beat myself up about this and wondered if i hadn’t tried hard enough or if I could have done more. The guilt was horrific.

With my second the health problem had been diagnosed, medicated and was under control. I produced shitloads of milk but I also experienced /every/ problem possible (tongue tie, inverted nipples, bad latch, thrush, mastitis, staph infection and finally raynauds) I posted on mn a few times looking for non existent answers and most women told me to stop. GPs told me to stop, HV told me to stop but the guilt from my time being unable to took over (&my general stubborn arseholery) Now I had milk in abundance so I was going to bloody well use it. Pumping would’ve seriously damaged my mental health (kudos to anyone who can manage this regularly!) so I kept with bfing and I’m still going 8montgs down the line.

Ok backstory out of the way, I think when the ability to /choose/ how we feed is criticised it should be recognised as a Feminist issue. When any woman’s right to make suitable choices for her children come into question it’s a feminist issue. When the main global superstars of breast is best are men making women who are struggling feel incompetent and stupid then it’s a feminist issue. When formula feeding is used as a stick by which to beat women down (figuratively obv) then it’s a feminist issue. In the end, fed is best and formula is an acceptable alternative for those who cannot or do not want to. There should be no need to justify our choices & perhaps now is when we stop doing so then others can hopefully follow suit

I’d already been told by a lactivist that it would’ve been kinder to allow my baby to die than give her formula

Thing is, if you come across someone who is clearly crazy and is saying ‘it would be better for your baby to die than have formula / be brought up atheist / have XYZ physical characteristic’ most of the time you put that person firmly in the ‘totally irrelevant to my life’ box.

But yet stories like this crop up again and again about breastfeeding and I don’t understand why. Was this a HCP? How did the conversation get to this stage without you backing away slowly from the crazy lady clearly talking poison?

Is it because women can be incredibly vulnerable after giving birth?

I have said this before, that post birth I was very fragile and anyone could have convinced me of anything / made me feel awful about myself / heavily manipulated me. It’s not a popular view amongst some women who think that post birth all you need is a shower and a strong cup of tea and you’ll be back to normal.

I do wonder if the heart of this is less about bf and ff and more about the reality of post-birth life vs the attitude of society that we should just sort ourselves out and get on with things.

“I’d already been told by a lactivist that it would’ve been kinder to allow my baby to die than give her formula”

Clearly a completely mad person. And what the fuck is a “lactivistl? I was told that one of mine would go to hell because she wasn’t baptized. Another mad person who I cheerfully ignored.

Lactivist. Those who push bf to the end of all else.

Nothing the same as a religion. And it’s disingenuous of you to conflate the two. But then. That’s what you do. Obfuscate and try to merail.

I have never heard of lactivists. They sound crazy. Like extreme religious people. Only conflating in terms of dealing with crazy people.

There you go en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactivism I googled that for you. Because. Links. Isn’t that right Bertrand?

Thank you. I didn't bother to google because they are obviously bonkers.
I am sorry you are still so angry with me.

Quite frankly whether you are sorry is totally irrelevant to me.

I’ve told you how you’ve made me feel.

I’ve asked that you stop.

And yet you still continue.

That’s a horrible thing to do, when you KNOW you’re upsetting someone, to blunder on and try to drive them off their own thread that they started.

Anyone would think it was goady fuckery.

But some reason you are allowed to do it.

Ah well. This is my thread. That I started. Here in feminism for a reason.

And I’m staying on it. Despite your best efforts.

And I’m not a bit sorry.

I don't think anybody should ever suggest that a woman "should have tried harder" to BF - I don't give a shit if she couldn't be bothered to "try" at all! It's not mandatory to try - it is a woman's personal decision. There is no reason necessary to stop either and no justification required. Quite simply, it is nobody else's business.

However, how to balance this with offering a woman support when she may wish to continue but believes there to be barriers in her way? How to bust myths about BF difficulty without making women feel as though they are disbelieved or invalidated? The fact is there ARE myths and artificial barriers to BF, which have no need to be there, often placed there by patriarchial norms or profit driven companies, so it empowers women to give them this information, but because it is such a raw emotional time, a lot of women interpret "Would you like to try this" as "You MUST try this, otherwise you're a bad mother." or worse, if they come across the suggestion in hindsight, even if it wasn't aimed directly at them: "Well OBVIOUSLY you should have known about and tried this!" (With what telepathy, I'm not sure.) I don't believe that advice is intended this way, at least not most of the time. I agree there are people who are pro-BF to a ridiculous level but these are not most BF supporters - most supporters simply want to give women the best possible chance that they can have to succeed, as long as they are happy to do so.

I think the important thing is not how women choose to feed their babies, it is that they are making free and informed choices whatever that choice is This is bottom line feminism. And it is a bottom line frequently not met by the health care establishment. In all areas of women’s health.

You really are determined to goad at me aren’t you? Why?