Trans friendly thread!

[100lbtolose]

Hi MNers!

Just first of all want to say this isn't going to be a goady thread or a place to slag anyone off of be abusive. Everyone can have an opinion and everyone's allowed to think that they like.

2nd, if your anti-trans or don't believe trans people should be alllwed to self ID or that they aren't the gender they say they are etc pls be respectful and don't post here. There are loads of threads about all kinds of discussions about being trans that you can post on and I think it would be fair if you didn't do that here. I Obviously can't prevent anyone but It would be nice for this space to be respected as trans friendly and not taken over for other reasons. If you don't agree just leave and post somewhere else instead of using this thread please!

That now said - I'm all for trans rights and I think trans men are men and transwomen are women. I don't know if many MNers feel the same but if you do say hi! Or if anyone is trans know that you have an ally in me this thread can be for a chat or support or (friendly!) discussion. Or maybe I'm the only one here lol and I can just talk to myself...

This is mum's net.. meaning we passed a rugbyball shaped human between our womb and birthed it into the world..
Or we want to do so.
Or we would have given anything to so.
Or we could have if we wanted to.

That is a Woman.

That we think we should have been a woman and are willing to have treatment to make us look act and speak like a woman, means we have Transposed into a woman..

I don't hate Tranwoman, but I can see that there is a vast difference.

Thanks for posting the 7 demands, that is what we should be fighting for.

I am happy to support trans people as long as women's hard won ground acknowledging their needs for safe places/ refuges / fair treatment in sport/ toilets and changing rooms and wards and prisons for people without penises etc. are also protected.

I think that some time and energy should go into looking at how we can live alongside each other with respect and in safety. Pretending our experiences are identical isn't the way to go and neither is disempowering women (born without penises).

I don't like "cis" much either. What is the alternative though? "All" woman (bit Jean Harlow)? "natural" woman (bit 70s disco)? The 51% minority? The Monstrous Regiment? Can someone come up with something suitable witty and cheeky please?

And OP, if you post on ANY topic here and ask only those who agree with you to comment, you are going to get your arse handed to you on a plate. Not exactly the way to win friends and influence people.

100years, so none of them achieved, despite laws to the contrary.
Proof that liberal feminism doesn't work really, isn't it.

Rather depressing.

Well no actual transphobia on mumsnet that any of you can link to then? Despite you claiming this place is 'full of it'?

I bet plenty of women can link to the violence, hatred and bile being flung at them by TRA's. Threats of rape and death.

I've only ever seen TRA's describing questioning and discussion as 'hatred' and 'literal violence'.

I don't hate anyone. I don't want to silence anyone or take away their basic rights. I can imagine that feeling that you are in the wrong body would be a horrific experience and I fully sympathise with people who want to be able to live in a way which makes them feel comfortable.
However, I can't say that a trans person actually becomes the biological sex they identify as, because they don't. No amount of surgery or hormones would make me capable of fathering a child or change my genetic makeup. Telling someone that these things can happen is unkind because it is so untrue. A person can be made as comfortable in their own skin as possible with surgery, hormones and counselling, but there is no way to make them into another biological sex. There just isn't.
I do also get the sense that there are two sets of people here- the people who just want to live as they wish and to deal with their identity as best they can without harassment or discrimination, and another set who are seeking to use the first group to gain political power and put down women.
As so often happens, the louder and more aggressive group is likely to do no favours for the genuinely discriminated against and make precisely no advances in peaceful co-existence.

Seems to me that there should be a difference when you talk about pre or post op transgender people. What about cases where the transgender woman has had her penis removed or do you still think she needs to be kept away from womens changing rooms?

The underlying implication is that penis necessarily and in all circumstances equals threat. I don't think this is the case.

Actually I think this thread is a very good example of the currently ideology that anything less than unquestioning affirmation is nasty and transphobic.

Ok I’m pro trans.

I’ll play.

As a pro trans person I think it’s crucial that’s trans people have access to the best medical care and therapy. Many trans people report a very high level of self harm and depression. I am concerned that self id takes away the support of the medical process and will leave many trans people vulnerable. I also worry that some vulnerable people who are not trans who may have just needed therapy will transition and come to regret it.

I’m concerned that we are telling a generation of young people that it’s physically possible to change sex and when they realise that’s not true they are going to be very angry.

Seems to me that there should be a difference when you talk about pre or post op transgender people. What about cases where the transgender woman has had her penis removed or do you still think she needs to be kept away from womens changing rooms?

The bar for hetting a GRC is lower than that shox

herecomesthsun we are the double XX-er's

Still waiting for op to tell us what a woman is....

I don't get it...I mean how can people so convinced that transwomen actually can be real women, not be able to tell us what a woman actually is?

Surely that should be the easy question to answer??

Dear 100lbstolose, as a trans ally, how do you think it best to remove the clause in the GRA that prohibits men (self identifed ones) from inheriting land or titles?

It makes it seem like for important things that men care about, there should be no changes. It is a strange omission don’t you think?

True therapy is important, but generally therapy for gender dysphoria never questions whether the persons self ID is real. I read about 2 prominent psychiatrists disciplined for saying certain people really had gender dysphoria. One was a woman who was psychotic and believed she was Jesus. She wanted a mastectomy to make her look more like Jesus, she came worryingly close to having one.

The idea of self ID and surgery and hormones being available as a result, would be a disaster for many very vulnerable people and will lead to more Drs being sued and disciplined.

Someone upthread said something about being biologically female, please note that there is no other way to be female. Female, quite literally, is biology, our chromosomes.

@Shoxfordian traditionally we have accepted and welcomed the presence of post-op transexuals because it's the kind thing to do. We do/did make distinctions.

But now we have this new term 'transgender' - and this covers your post-op transexuals with GRC as well as cross-dressers, and people who feel like women once in a while like the guy who campaigned to get in to the girls changing area at Top Shop. It's bloody awful that transexuals have been caught in the crossfire, a good number of them are our allies and are with us in condemning self-ID.

You don't have to see a penis as a threat to want to preserve your own privacy and dignity in a changing room.

And just to add, there is NO other situation where you can self ID as something and get access to services as a result. So you can self ID as disabled, but if you don't meet certain criteria you will not get access to blue badges, disability benefits, and other services.

Self ID is so obviously flawed whatever your view around transgender. It will if passed lead to many problems.

Hi OP, glad you know how babies are made. Do you think the people who gestate babies are different to the people whose contribution is a spurt of genetic material?

crunchy was that aimed at me? Because I think we’re singing from the same hymsheet.

100YearsOfVote

Those seven demands are eye-opening, aren't they?

We have so much further to go. It's astonishing that in nearly 50 years, we still haven't achieved them!

Thanks for that.

I support the liberation of women.

And self ID means those who go to work, live with their family, etc as men, but go out on a Saturday night "dressed as woman", have to be treated as a woman on that Saturday night. There are plenty of these men who would once have been called cross dressers who will be legally allowed to access any woman only space. Join trans social media groups and you soon see there are a LOT of men like this.

What used to be called transexuals i.e. men or women who really wanted to be a different sex and have surgery and take hormones - are a very small proportion of the Trans community.
Many people who support Trans rights know very little about the reality.

I missed if someone already asked...
But if self id for gender (but not disability or race, glad we cleared that up btw) is the best for everyone, can I (a woman) self identify as a transwoman?

I completely support trans rights. I will happily support campaigns for trans people to have their own spaces and to have their own representation (because their experiences differ from biological men, women and LGB people). But I think those spaces (whether physical or on boards/committees) should be taken at the expense of men who are still disproportionately represented rather than at the expense of women.
It's like if a cake had ten slices and a man was holding nine and a woman had one - I'd ask the man to share. I wouldn't tell the woman she wasn't allowed any because her slice now belonged to a transwoman. Because taking the single slice away from the woman looks a lot like disadvantaging women rather than getting a slice of cake for transpeople.
Now, can you explain to me why when men are the main source of violence against women, children, transwomen and transmen - why so many trans activists spend their time campaigning against biological women rather than against male violence?
Oh, and can you also explain why if 'transwomen are women' they don't support any of the issues around maternal health; female access to education; reproductive rights, etc - but instead actively call for people who raise those issues to be silenced?