Trans friendly thread!

[100lbtolose]

Hi MNers!

Just first of all want to say this isn't going to be a goady thread or a place to slag anyone off of be abusive. Everyone can have an opinion and everyone's allowed to think that they like.

2nd, if your anti-trans or don't believe trans people should be alllwed to self ID or that they aren't the gender they say they are etc pls be respectful and don't post here. There are loads of threads about all kinds of discussions about being trans that you can post on and I think it would be fair if you didn't do that here. I Obviously can't prevent anyone but It would be nice for this space to be respected as trans friendly and not taken over for other reasons. If you don't agree just leave and post somewhere else instead of using this thread please!

That now said - I'm all for trans rights and I think trans men are men and transwomen are women. I don't know if many MNers feel the same but if you do say hi! Or if anyone is trans know that you have an ally in me this thread can be for a chat or support or (friendly!) discussion. Or maybe I'm the only one here lol and I can just talk to myself...

Deadly No having a bit of a rant. Need to get back to work though. But this stuff just fills me with despair and anger.

battleax I know I can't tell anyone, that's why I asked. I don't think it's a big ask to ask people to make their own threads instead of using this one. It should be ok for there to be one totally trans friendly thread right?

No, not in feminism/women's rights. You have a right to post it, and I have a right to post to say it isn't really a feminist thread and point out why.

Post in chat if you want a thread where no one disagrees with you. I would ignore it in there. But posting it in feminism appears goady whether that is your intention or not.

Trans rights are a feminist issue. I'll keep saying it regardless of how many times anyone tries to argue differently.

The other thing you have to do is remember that the context of this is one of no-platforming and the #nodebate thing, the Guardian deleting every single gender critical comment. We are not prepared to cede one of the very few spaces on the internet which is #yesdebate.

I hate to say it, but I'm beginning to suspect the OP is a bit thick.

No, I actually disagree Patrick. I think the OP is hoping for a flood of "transphobia" they can take screenshots of to put on twitter/into the not-so-secret Labour party dossier (not-so-secret because the people who put that one up really are thick as mince - I mean, how hard is it to get the privacy settings right on your google drive documents?)

@BattleCuntGalactica can you say why trans rights are a feminist issue, rather than simply restating this? I would really like to understand why this is the case.

I agree, Battle, trans rights ARE a feminist issue in that their advancement has significant negative implications for women's rights. I would go so far as to say that the trans movement represents the worst assault on women's rights in 100 years. That is why they are the main topic of debate on here.

Why are trans rights a feminist issue?

I actually agree that women identifying as men, taking hormones and mastectomies, is a feminist issue - but I suspect you are talking about the men.

Ah perhaps HairyBall. She/he isn't doing very well so far, is she?

still hoping this thread will settle down and just pro-trans views will be put here but may take a while! That's why I'm not engaging! Maybe it's stupid but I'm still hopeful!

Define 'pro-trans views.' Many posters have stated that they fully support an individual's right to live as they choose, as long as it doesn't impact on the rights of others (women, in this case).

Also... how do you know who is posting? How do you know whether a poster is transgender?

OP are you aware you've done the equivalent of posting your BBQ chicken recipe on a vegan board and asked other vegans to post their favourite chicken sauces?

Instead of posting on the existing 'meat recipes' topic....

Ohhh I think I know what happens...

I think these people genuinely believe everyone else has swallowed the dogma and we are the only pocket of resistance left.

And I think it's social medias fault.

Have you been on twitter lately? Post anything even remotely deemed a question about the trans ideology and you get blocked. Instantly. By anyone who doesn't agree with you.

So these people are posting basically to themselves all day.

'Oh God isn't everyone who disagrees with us horrible!' followed by a chorus of agreement. Because they block anyone who wants a discussion claiming any discussion is 'transphobic'.

I'm not actually that worried anymore. We've just got a couple of big echo chambers, some politicians mistaking it for more popular that it actually is and as soon as the general public get wind of exactly what is being proposed here - BANG - bye bye echo chamber bubble, hello reality.

I have been told that as I say I don't have a gender, I am agender. That officially makes me transgender.

Sadly I think it will take children growing up and complaining about being labelled as transgender at fucking 3, to really change things.

Okay I am going back to work now, going to have to work a bit later because of this diversion.

really I thought there could be one pro-trans thread

Why? Do you regularly post in FWR? If not why are you trying to colonise space in it? Maybe post it in AIBU, Chat or LGBT if you want a "pro trans thread". See what you get.

I'll just reply to people from now on if they are here in support of trans people

Twas ever thus.

I have to say I am absolutely fucking sick of being told I am transphobic, sick of being told my comments or my thoughts are so deeply upsetting, sick of being told that I am excluding my sisters blah blah fucking blah, without ONE SINGLE RATIONAL ARGUMENT to back those accusations up. It's just total GUFF.

Seriously, engage on here. Tell me why and how transwomen are women. Tell me why its OK that male bodied people may well be able to compete in women's sports. Tell me why it's OK that a male bodied person with a penis who has a history of violent crime is put in prison with a load of females. Tell me why it's OK that a woman who has been raped might turn up to a crisis centre and receive counselling from someone who has 'self identified as a woman' but is very obviously a man.

Tell me why those things are fine and not just fine but progressive.

If you can't do that, then fuck the fuck off.

patrickharviesorganicmuesli, I normally don't post on these threads - I just read in growing horror and consternation - but I have to agree with you. I'm not sure whether you were jesting, but it does worry me that as cogent and unassailable as the arguments are, they are simply too complex and academic for a great many people (especially the most vocal DIAF contingent) to grasp

Unwilling to accept debate; invading women’s spaces; insulting older women- yep, this is definitely a pro trans thread (grin)

*@jessicaeccles since this is my thread and it was clearly titled and u came her to post gou might say it’s you invading my post!

You started the thread. You don’t own the thread. Mumsnet does and you signed to that effect when you became a member. You don’t get to decide what’s written on your thread.

Anyway, back to the trans point. I’m not anti trans. I know I would be considered so because I want women (with a vagina) to feel safe at all times. I also want transwomen to feel safe at all times. The solution to doing this isn’t to take my safe spaces. Transwomen shouldn’t get precedence over weaker, vulnerable natal women just because they have louder voices.

I also think trans people shouldn’t be allowed to self identify not just because of the potential danger to women. In so doing, they set themselves up for abuse, ridicule and rejection and self Id is an easy and cheap way of preventing trans people from accessing proper mental health care.

Lastly I abhore that children are not allowed any kind of mental health care when they self identify. This is cruel. As is giving them puberty blockers, which will potentially leave them infertile or impotent should they decide to realign with their sex. Hormones of any sort should not be allowed before at least 18. At this time, the prefrontal cortex is only half formed so 18 may actually be too low.

It would be nice for this board to be respected as woman friendly and not taken over for other reasons.

How does one thread amount to taking over the entire board?

I have to say I am absolutely fucking sick of being told I am transphobic, sick of being told my comments or my thoughts are so deeply upsetting, sick of being told that I am excluding my sisters blah blah fucking blah, without ONE SINGLE RATIONAL ARGUMENT to back those accusations up. It's just total GUFF

If one SINGLE poster answers you and tell you exactly why asking questions is transphobic I will tattoo 'MEN ARE WOMEN, WOMEN ARE MEN' on my forehead.

op

Can you please define what you mean by ‘pro trans’ views, how exactly wanting an open discussion about something that will affect everyone is ‘anti trans’ regardless if that person is themselves trans.

Can you define what you think transphobia is?

According to the definitions of transgender, it seems to me that most of the women who post the wonderful and articulate comments on threads in the feminism section could be classed as either agender or non-binary and therefore come under the transgender umbrella, even without including all the women who have felt in the past that they wanted to be a boy.

How could people who are classed as transgender be 'anti-trans'?