Trans friendly thread!

[100lbtolose]

Hi MNers!

Just first of all want to say this isn't going to be a goady thread or a place to slag anyone off of be abusive. Everyone can have an opinion and everyone's allowed to think that they like.

2nd, if your anti-trans or don't believe trans people should be alllwed to self ID or that they aren't the gender they say they are etc pls be respectful and don't post here. There are loads of threads about all kinds of discussions about being trans that you can post on and I think it would be fair if you didn't do that here. I Obviously can't prevent anyone but It would be nice for this space to be respected as trans friendly and not taken over for other reasons. If you don't agree just leave and post somewhere else instead of using this thread please!

That now said - I'm all for trans rights and I think trans men are men and transwomen are women. I don't know if many MNers feel the same but if you do say hi! Or if anyone is trans know that you have an ally in me this thread can be for a chat or support or (friendly!) discussion. Or maybe I'm the only one here lol and I can just talk to myself...

One thing I do find irritating about this whole thing is the assumption that all trans people want the same thing and think the same. We are not a hive mind. We are all individuals. There seems to be a widespread belief among the trans allies that all transwomen want the same thing so obviously objecting to self identification is transphobic because there is no way a transwoman could possibly see any problems with it.

I have posted on threads here where I have made it clear that I am trans only for further down the thread someone to jump in complaining about the horrible transphobia and how they want any transwomen reading to know that they are women too. Not only is that ridiculous but they have also made it clear that they either don't even read the threads (so how would they know it's transphobic?) or they have but have decided to ignore the transwomen who have posted about how they find being called a woman distressing.

twitter.com/wifwulf/status/942461120878485504

Do people have any idea what yelling transphobia has actually done for people like me? The damage it has done and is doing?

@Reiltin won't be back.

It’s very interesting that I never see trans activists on a couple of very well known male dominated forums that I visit.
I do see actual transphobic posts on them. Very nasty comments, far worse than I see here on MN. So why are those message boards not targeted? I really can’t think why.....

It’s like when people say ‘you can’t say merry Christmas anymore because it offends muslims’
And the Muslims turn around and say ‘wait a minute I love Christmas, crack on’.
Then people hate muslims because they’re trying to ban Christmas

They don't care Curry, they just want their cookies from the brogressives. :(

OrderMeACurry

Your voice is vital if we are going to navigate effectively through this madness. As a feminist I know how tiresome it can be to always have to repeat the same thing over and over and over. Nevertheless, We Persist.

I've seen people do that with atheism in the US, Christmas carols at the shops etc are very offensive to atheists because skydaddy, and I'm all, wait what? I think the whole baby in a manger part is nonsense but in terms of presents and seasonal overeating sign me up!

I haven't read the whole thread. It does make me somewhat uncomfortable though that we often champion Curry and other trans posters, or parents of trans-identifying children when they agree with our gender critical views, but without really exploring ways we can mutually support each other. I realise that this is women's space and not trans space, but I also can't help feeling that sometimes we 'agree with' use trans/parents of trans posters who are gender critical because they agree with us, but without quite understanding or caring about their unique perspectives. My feeling about this derives from often personally feeling used without feeling really part of groups or valuable for who I am. Apologies if I am projecting.

Thank you pidgeon and curry. Your input is very very welcome.

Curry. I don’t. I can imagine it’s horrible. But I don’t.

Sincere thanks to the OP for this thread, it has been my eureka moment.

Posts by Pidgeon and Curry in particular have really clarified things for me, your experiences and views have really moved me, and I'm grateful to you for sharing.

As the OP suggested, I've googled for positive reasons to introduce self id - I haven't seen any evidence that stands up to scrutiny, and posts from those supporting the OP have also failed to convince. On the other hand, posts from those who are anti self id have raised valid points and concerns, expressed in a calm and measured manner, I see no transphobia here.

I am pro women, I am pro trans, I am anti self id.

Thanks again for this thread OP

YetAnotherSpartacus - I know what you mean. Echo chambers and confirmation bias aren't good for TRAs and they aren't good for us either. But that said, amplifying the voices of gender critical trans people is vital - as Curry said, trans isn't a monolith of genderism no matter how much the TRAs try to paint it so.

As far as I can see the only people who benefit from self-ID are middle aged autogynephiles like that guy who was offering "orgasm workshops" (in Hull?) and pisstakers like Travis Albanza. Not sure why I should want to help either group of people in their quest to piss all over women's boundaries.

Lang - I'm not sure you have grasped quite what I meant. My main worry is that we praise transwomen and parents of trans-identifying children when they agree with us, but we don't take this any further to really consider how we might be mutually supportive and we don't explore much about what their needs might be (more so for transwomen I think). I don't like virtue signalling but I also don't like 'using' and I do wonder if this is happening here.

The only thing I can really think of as far as being supportive would be to acknowledge trans women in the sense of saying, you are a feminine man and that's a perfectly acceptable thing to be. I can't validate trans women as women because I think woman means adult human female. It's not about being mean or wanting to hurt people, it's that it feels like saying "this cat is a dog". I'm lying, the person I'm talking to probably knows that I'm lying, how is lying to someone supporting them? I'm not sure that there's a way to get past that. I've met trans women who were OK with that, but in Asia, where the framing of this whole issue is quite different.

Like Miranda Yardley I think I would get on well with for a variety of different reasons, but I can't say that I perceive Miranda as a woman, because I don't. If perceiving the person in a way that I honestly just don't is a requirement then we can't be friends, because I can't turn off the part of my brain that knows that they're male. Doesn't mean I don't like them as a person, but they may not like me back very much given that there's just no way I can meet them halfway on that issue without being dishonest.

I get you, I think, YetAnotherSpartacus. A bit like the TRAs and allies will only accept ever narrower beliefs that make someone a non-TERF, do we only accept a very narrow range of transgendered people?

Yes, possibly. I think I only really accept those people who know that they are of their birth sex, can articulate why that is unbearable for them, and don't try to obtain an unfair advantage, or access to non-consenting nekkid people.

(I am genuinely scared of some of the loudest, shoutiest, most aggressive, inconsistent, illogical, bullying gits out there. I'm definitely shouty-git-phobic.)

I'm not asking how we think we could support 'them' (sorry - that's awful language). I'm talking about genuine dialogue to find avenues of mutual support. I don't want to fall into the old trap of 'women supporting men', I'm searching for mutuality, but I do want something that goes beyond praise for the right words spoken.

That didn't answer any of the part of your post about how we support trans-people or their families. Maybe Curry or Pidgeon can answer that?

Cross posts! OK, how can they support us?

Maybe the answer to that question is to do with legal stuff, in the same way we're asking trans women to support us in asserting that self-ID is not going to work out for anyone. Like, what do Curry and Pigeon want, legally? What about medically?

A bit like the TRAs and allies will only accept ever narrower beliefs that make someone a non-TERF, do we only accept a very narrow range of transgendered people

Kind of. I think we get to choose who we accept and who we don't. This is a feminist discussion so I'm happy for natal women to be gatekeepers. But once we have accepted individuals (such as Curry) and we have accepted there is a common struggle between us I think we need to do more than merely patting on the head for the right words. Otherwise, it feels very much like 'using'. Plus, we can be allies in a common struggle.

Also, what would their child selves have wanted? I feel like the current narrative of childhood transition is being pushed by a combination of homophobic parents and older AGPs who wish they'd turned out "prettier" and who have a quite unsavory interest in the potential sex lives of trans kids. We don't seem to hear much at all from people like Miranda about what they would have wanted for their child selves.

(Full disclosure, my take on that would be "do nothing at all until they grow up", because I think people need both an adult brain and a full awareness of what transitioning will mean on a sexual level and in terms of fertility before making any kind of irreversible decisions.)

Would, for instance, categories of male, female, transman, transwoman in sports be acceptable to all? (I almost said 'both sides', but let's avoid that.)

Female, male and unisex loos?

Birth certificates amended to say, openly, 'Birth sex 1984: F; reassigned 2006: M'?

School uniform open to both sexes?

Continued campaigns like 'Let Toys be Toys'?

School relationships discussions that explicitly state that homosexual and lesbian/gay mean attracted to the same sex?

Medical guidelines that do question identity, and follow up?

Large-scale studies of outcomes that include both sex and gender ID?

Basically, just opening the whole discussion up to the fresh air, and cutting the forced pretence?