Trans friendly thread!

[100lbtolose]

Hi MNers!

Just first of all want to say this isn't going to be a goady thread or a place to slag anyone off of be abusive. Everyone can have an opinion and everyone's allowed to think that they like.

2nd, if your anti-trans or don't believe trans people should be alllwed to self ID or that they aren't the gender they say they are etc pls be respectful and don't post here. There are loads of threads about all kinds of discussions about being trans that you can post on and I think it would be fair if you didn't do that here. I Obviously can't prevent anyone but It would be nice for this space to be respected as trans friendly and not taken over for other reasons. If you don't agree just leave and post somewhere else instead of using this thread please!

That now said - I'm all for trans rights and I think trans men are men and transwomen are women. I don't know if many MNers feel the same but if you do say hi! Or if anyone is trans know that you have an ally in me this thread can be for a chat or support or (friendly!) discussion. Or maybe I'm the only one here lol and I can just talk to myself...

Also @100lbtolose

I'm not sure you have taken any time to read what the trans community is asking for.

I have provided a link to their (very long, sorry) manifesto - Action for Trans Health.

Among other things it calls for the immediate release of all trans prisoners, drugs to be available over the counter and surgical training to be given to trans people so they can operate on eachother.

And before you (accurately) think oh they are just nutters, they were specifically asked to provide written evidence for Maria Miller's report on Transgender Equality.

Parliament published all 98 pages, crediting them with their contribution (none from women's groups, btw).

They subsequently encouraged the violence that ensued at speakers corner where a 60 year old was hit in the face.

Perhaps you had better check 'the rights' you are advocating for.

gendertrender.wordpress.com/2017/09/20/trans-health-manifesto/#comments

Aren't they just.

And when you have the minority you think you are supporting plus experienced civil rights workers and marginalized groups that know very well what oppression looks like telling you you are wrong and that you have been taken in by the system you should listen to them.

And talk with them and debate with them.

This thread does have a bit of an own goal feel to it, womanhuman.

pilatesofthecaribbean

Is trancel what they are calling themselves??

Seems like a bit of an own goal.

I'm going to sound like a total wanker here but bear with me...
I did a degree in philosophy. Not terribly useful but lots of sitting around interrogating ideas and pushing ourselves to be logically consistent and challenge ourselves. Faith based positions were not philosophically sound and were robustly challenged. That's how I approach thinking, because that makes sense and it's how my mind works.
Trans ideology is so inconsistent, so logically flawed that it seems obvious but I think many people aren't minded to think that way.

They must be terrified of anyone who can apply philosophical methods to the "I can fly" madness 😏

I agree adalind and they don’t push their ideas to their logical conclusions. The just say things without examination of what the implications of the mast are.
Say what you like about Andrea Dworkin but she sure as hell knew how to push an idea to the end.

Babypythagorus

I’ve not read the full thread, and won’t come back, because it’s descended into the typical stuff.

It's a shame you haven't read the thread, because you've missed at least two transwomen's views on their lives and communities.

But I wanted to say that as a feminist, and cis-woman, I was really happy to see this thread!

That's nice.

I believe that feminism has space for supporting trans-women and cis-women,

Well, apart from the cis bullshit, I don't think anyone disagrees with supporting transwomen, even though that's not part of feminism.

and that we may not be the same, or have the same experiences,

Oh! Hang on a minute. This statement makes you a TERF. In order not to be a TERF you have to believe that women and transwomen have the exact same lifetime experiences and are exactly the same. I believe the prevailing rhetoric is either to immediately recant and wear sack cloth and ashes or, um, go and die in a fire. Sorry about that.

but that doesn’t mean we should exclude each other, or erode each other’s rights.

Which rights that trans people have now do you think are being eroded by women? Which rights that women presently have do you think trans people don't have? Why is it always women who have to budge up for everyone?

I’d have loved this thread to be what you wanted OP.

Then you're in luck, because this thread is exactly what the OP wanted. Huzzah and hooray, and hang out the fucking bunting.

A Paris fan took to twitter to complain about how terrible we all are:

twitter.com/katelevann/status/955860360975863815

I am not anti-trans nor a bigot nor a transphobe, I think trans people need more representation and spaces and will stand by them and fight for those rights with them. I am, however, anti self-ID.

It really is open to such abuse, if a violent person or paedophile is depraved enough to attack women and sexually abuse children, putting on a dress (or not, as the case may be) and saying they're a woman isn't going to stop them. In fact, hold the front page, it's going to make it MUCH easier.

If you think I'm a bigot because I believe watching an adult male bodied human with their adult male penis following my daughter into a changing room/shower/pool shouldn't concern me, then so be it.

Thank you CAAKE and Beachcomber .

As well as transgenderism being completely opposed to women's rights - including the basic right to our own humanity - I feel there is an argument to be made that it is very opposed to socialist thinking. That one must consume products (lipstick/dresses/heels) to be an agent of one's own destiny and express a fundamental aspect of one's existence. Selling individualism en mass! Capitalism is determined to privatise everything - from public life to private life. From water to sex - sex now needs products according to Capitalism. The body must be prepared, God forbid sex occurred without an expensive wax/lengerie/plastic toy/lubricant. Capitalism is trying to sell 'sex' itself as a product in the offensive term 'sex work'.

Feminism, and Black Lives Matter, feel like the last bastions of collective action and structural analysis. This is why they are coming for us. What better way to destroy one's opponent than to remove their language and collective existence.

It's not possible to change your gender with all the surgery and hormones in the world. You will still be the gender that you was born with It's just not possible. I think a lot of people can't accept that.

No-one is born with a gender - you are born a sex, which, yes, you cannot change. The extent to which you engage with discourses of gender which are often toxic for women is up to you.

Putting the kind hat back on for a second, isn't it unkind to hold the promise of just that, changing sex for real, in front of people like a carrot when you know that it's not actually possible? I feel like the refusal to accept that fact and figure out a way to live with it as best as possible given what can be done is underlying the high rates of mental illness in the trans community. How can you ever come to a place of peace within yourself if you're always chasing that false hope?

Ereshkigal

We are all terrible. And those man cookies she gets taste so good.

It's a shame that she doesn't understand that the minute she falls behind the curve and says anything that is now wrongthink, none of this present virtue signalling will count for shit, they'll still threaten to kill her.

Feminism, and Black Lives Matter, feel like the last bastions of collective action and structural analysis. This is why they are coming for us. What better way to destroy one's opponent than to remove their language and collective existence.

Yes to this and everything you say about capitalism / socialism.

I think it is the underlying reason why so many of us feel so strongly about this. It does feel like we're on the last line of defense of class as a tool that can be used FOR the masses and not just AGAINST us.

EVERYTHING goes back to the removal - not creation - of human rights.

Why is that?

I'm not sure why Transactivists like the OP come onto mumsnet to start these threads.

Partly to gather incriminating screenshots, I should imagine. Because there's no way it's about creating a nice thread for trans-people, because they are ignoring the trans people.

But even if they take screenshots out of context, as soon as they highlight the source, more people come here to take a look.

Drawing attention to this site is very counter-productive.

The OP has not engaged in any kind of discourse. Disagreeing with women is quite useful, because it exposes the lack of argument.

Which is, presumably, why they haven't expressly done that.

But you can't target mumsnet without drawing attention to it.

As soon as you draw attention to it, people see the well reasoned argument and understand the conflict.

And a new gender critical feminist is born.

And there have been hundreds. Quite literally.

It would be such mammoth progression if people like the OP would actually talk.

If they explained why they and their partner were trans. What they wanted and why. Taking into account how that will affect women and what could be done to mitigate the fallout.

Wouldn't it be better to merely cede the transwomen are women argument (assuming the OP is not AGP), agree that homosexuality is based on sex not gender and understand the worry about children?

And then enjoy the support of women, rather than target them.

You will still be the gender that you was born with It's just not possible. I think a lot of people can't accept that.

They've been encouraged to believe that they don't have to. As pp said, it's not actually very kind to them. But I guess it's a coping mechanism to believe it's all some great injustice and go after the people who provide rational arguments which challenge your beliefs.

You can be whatever "gender" you want.

In New York you can be recognised as any of 31 genders. On Tumblr that goes up to several hundred.

But you can't change your sex.

I'm now finding it very difficult to talk to my Labour MP - not only does he dismiss my concerns as a 'silly woman' but he was a backer of the early day motion for the GRA. I can infer from this that while I present evidence and reasoned arguments he:

1. Does not see me as fully human, I am a costume & set of stereotypes
2. Believes I have a ladybrain, despite my education and life-experience surpassing his he is the font of knowledge over what a woman is
3. Believes I am a bigot/fascist for opposing this ideology
4. Does not believe sexism is real, if one cannot see sex one cannot see sexism
5. Believes that in cases of sex assault or rape women must some how be at fault, we identify into this. If we identify into this through our appearance and clothes surely this is a similar argument to she was raped because of what she was wearing?

Women have been groomed into liberal 'feminism' which uses the term choice to re-code oppression as empowerment.

So OP is directing us to google for our research, even though OP seems to know all about it and is just refusing to tell us? OK then. First google hits for the below sequential queries:

Q: What is a woman?
A: "an adult human female."

Q: What is an adult human female?
A: "A woman is a female human being. The term woman is usually reserved for an adult, with the term girl being the usual term for a female child or adolescent. ... Women with typical genetic development are usually capable of giving birth from puberty until menopause."

Q: What is a genetic woman?
A: 1. a person with a normal female karyotype, including two X chromosomes;

1. a person whose cell nuclei contain Barr sex chromatin bodies, which are normally absent in males.

Rightio then. So the internet, where OP sent me, definitively tells me a transwoman is not, and cannot be, a woman. Got it.

Do I have to stick to Google for information on trans issues? Or can I use my University's rather more reliable search engines?

Choose carefully here, because if you choose one, you can read all kind of bollocks and on the other you'll get factual analysis and empirical studies.

AngryAttackKittens yes to what you say about the cruel false promise being made to people about being able to change sex.

It's why I think trans ideology dehumanizes gender dysphoric people.

It dehumanizes us all.

Neither xeno, both are transphobic.
Only huffpo, pricknews and everyday meninism are acceptable.