Trans friendly thread!

[100lbtolose]

Hi MNers!

Just first of all want to say this isn't going to be a goady thread or a place to slag anyone off of be abusive. Everyone can have an opinion and everyone's allowed to think that they like.

2nd, if your anti-trans or don't believe trans people should be alllwed to self ID or that they aren't the gender they say they are etc pls be respectful and don't post here. There are loads of threads about all kinds of discussions about being trans that you can post on and I think it would be fair if you didn't do that here. I Obviously can't prevent anyone but It would be nice for this space to be respected as trans friendly and not taken over for other reasons. If you don't agree just leave and post somewhere else instead of using this thread please!

That now said - I'm all for trans rights and I think trans men are men and transwomen are women. I don't know if many MNers feel the same but if you do say hi! Or if anyone is trans know that you have an ally in me this thread can be for a chat or support or (friendly!) discussion. Or maybe I'm the only one here lol and I can just talk to myself...

Not to mention death threats, and if they thought the owners of the cafe were evil terfs too, calls for the place to be burnt down. Which has also happened.

the questions you want to know have great answers online

Please, please show me where. I have researched this topic extensively and found lots of emotion and not much substance on the TRA side.

Along with many other posters on this thread I'm distressed to find myself on the 'bigot' side of a debate for the first time in my life. We want to be convinced that society's current trajectory towards acceptance of transgender ideology has merit. And yet all the evidence suggests that this ideology is misogynistic, homophobic and rotten to the core. Reading around the topic only provides more evidence for homophobia and sexism, IME.

So, please direct us to the 'answers online'. If they exist. Many of us would be genuinely keen to read them.

• transgender ideology as in 'transwomen are women' rather than 'transwomen are transwomen and that's something perfectly worthy of dignity and respect'.

The 'just google it because I can't be bothered to share it with you as im so tired of repeating myself about this' line, isnt terribly pro-trans is it?

When effort or time is required to further other people's understanding and challenge their 'ignorance' then suddenly it becomes too much like hard work to be a trans ally.

Instead these fairweather friends simply disappear in a puff of smoke.

I can’t imagine gender critical women would have got very fa if our answer had been ‘just google it’ to every women who asked what was going on.

calls for the place to be burnt down. Which has also happened.

I was at the Speakers Corner event. I know a few other people on the thread were too. I have lovely memories of us all sitting in the venue listening to the shouts from outside of "BURN IT DOWN!"

AngryAttackKittens The gender critical feminist woman would be received as ‘aggressive’ regardless whether they raised their voice. Because for women to question anything or form their own opinion is always viewed as aggressive and ‘violent’.

Whereas threatened or actual violence from an adult male human is clearly justified when women won’t just stay in their place and do as they’re told.

Ok I’ve googled it.

The only serious article I found was this one,

medium.com/@juliaserano/transgender-people-and-biological-sex-myths-c2a9bcdb4f4a

It claims that trans people are intersex, that when you change your secondary sex characteristics you become the other sex, chromosomes don’t matter cos you can’t see them and that women are oppressed because of there gender and it’s ‘fantastical’ to say their oppression has anything to with their biology.

Does anyone think these things are true? Anyone?

The funniest part of that article is that Julia Serano is a biologist by training, supposedly.

www.nature.com/news/sex-redefined-1.16943

And I found this article that goes on and on listing intersex conditions and even rather offensively has pcos in there as a reason to why sex is a spectrum as though women with pcos were somehow dubious about whether they were women.

Still a binary.

If a person is intersex then they aren’t trans they are intersex.

I also have issues with the inclusion of hypospadius. A penis with a urethra that's in a slightly unusual position is still a penis.

Does anyone think these things are true? Anyone?

...crickets...

Dear 100lbstolose

Please can you explain why you believe that 'transwomen are women' - are you of the opinion that a socially constructed set of stereotypes are in fact innate? If so I would appreciate links to research or to hear your own feelings on this.
Are you arguing on a feminism thread that women have ladybrains and men have blue brains? Why else could one be born in the wrong body?
Do you believe that feminism should centre men's feelings above women's reality?
Are you of the opinion that oppression can be wiped off at night, that is our choice based on how we decide to identify and present in the morning?
I hold an alternative view. I believe that transgendersim is the latest belch of neoliberalism and a successful form of modern misogyny. Neoliberalism has succeeded in smashing opposition through hyper-individualism, it has destroyed class and structural analysis so the onus for misfortune is put on the individual and no collective action can be taken. Transgenderism, and what will come later - transracial & transdisabled - is an attempt to turn feminist analysis into hate speech.

pilatesofthecaribbean

Transcel? I haven't heard that before. Is it a thing?

It's a neat description of these cotton ceilers.

@Babypythagorus

I believe that feminism has space for supporting trans-women and cis-women, and that we may not be the same, or have the same experiences,

I'm afraid the last part of that sentence makes you a full on TERF.

Wasn't it almost that exact statement that had TRAs screeching at Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie about how TERFy she was?

Those articles demonstrate the very definition of confirmation bias.

This, from Nature: "This type of work has further blurred the sex divide, because it means that men often carry cells from their mothers, and women who have been pregnant with a male fetus can carry a smattering of its discarded cells."

So let me get this straight - I've carried two male foetuses, so some of their cells may remain in my body so... logically (!) this means that I'm now partially male and this "fact" scientifically supports gender fluidity?

ROFL.

So if I've never been pregnant I'm somehow More Woman than a woman who has kids on account of how the only extra cells I may be carrying around are my mother's? But what if she had some random male cells? Is this going to be like CellCeption?

@100lbtolose

I presume that you are for the transing of children as this is part of the "pro all trans demands and self-identification #nodebate" package that you are completely in favour of.

So you are for the sterilization of children. You are for medical experimentation on minors. You are unquestioningly for the mutilation of healthy children's body parts as part of an ideology you support. You are for gay conversion therapy.

This is not liberal. You are not a progressive. You are supporting a harmful ideology without question and this is dangerous. You may think you are open minded but who wants to be open minded about the abuse of children? Who wants to be so open minded they do not question an ideology which requires the sterilization of children in order to validate the world view of adults?

No debate and unquestioning support are where extremism lie. If an idea is good its supporters welcome discussion. What gets called trans ideology is a dogmatic faith based cult. An unquestioning cult that harms children, women, lesbians, homosexuals and transsexuals. There is nothing so transphobic as the chanting of the mantra "transwomen are women". I will take the feminist view that "transwomen are human" a million times over. Self-identification dehumanizes transwomen and women.

FFS

Apparently carrying a male child helps protect against Alzheimer's because of those cells.

(Completely off topic. Though
I guess this adds weight to the idea that male cells and female cells have different qualities at a biological cellular level which plastic surgery won't help with)

I hold an alternative view. I believe that transgendersim is the latest belch of neoliberalism and a successful form of modern misogyny. Neoliberalism has succeeded in smashing opposition through hyper-individualism, it has destroyed class and structural analysis so the onus for misfortune is put on the individual and no collective action can be taken. Transgenderism, and what will come later - transracial & transdisabled - is an attempt to turn feminist analysis into hate speech.

Yes to this. And all the I'm so open minded my brain has fallen out lot think neo-liberalism is liberal and progressive. It's a con. They are being conned.

I’m going to be annoying and pick up a minor point from way back in the thread - I think that the language of ‘identifying’ as BAME or disabled isn’t so daft, as both of these are a spectrum. So at the edges it’s simplest to self-define. Someone with one grandparent from Jamaica might look and feel white, or mixed race. Someone might have had all their disability benefits cut, but still struggle with daily life. Obviously there are some piss-takers but Rachel Dolezal made headlines because she was unusual. Anyway, as you were, back to the gender discussion...

Alt right and alt left are bezzie mates.

Datun I think I saw trancel used on Tumblr, or possibly Reddit. It certainly does encapsulate these men. Some have literally gone from incel to trancel, I gather. Even with those who don’t frequent those groups, it’s really what the movement is about - raging misogyny, homophobia and sexual entitlement. My days of having any sympathy for any of them have long gone, entirely due to their own behaviour and attitudes.

And yy to @ContemporaryPankhurst's thoughts about neoliberalism 👏

This thread is perfect.

If it was OP’s intention to get a bunch of people to post well thought-out, balanced reasoning as to why they’re concerned, OP really couldn’t have done a better job.