Trans friendly thread!

[100lbtolose]

Hi MNers!

Just first of all want to say this isn't going to be a goady thread or a place to slag anyone off of be abusive. Everyone can have an opinion and everyone's allowed to think that they like.

2nd, if your anti-trans or don't believe trans people should be alllwed to self ID or that they aren't the gender they say they are etc pls be respectful and don't post here. There are loads of threads about all kinds of discussions about being trans that you can post on and I think it would be fair if you didn't do that here. I Obviously can't prevent anyone but It would be nice for this space to be respected as trans friendly and not taken over for other reasons. If you don't agree just leave and post somewhere else instead of using this thread please!

That now said - I'm all for trans rights and I think trans men are men and transwomen are women. I don't know if many MNers feel the same but if you do say hi! Or if anyone is trans know that you have an ally in me this thread can be for a chat or support or (friendly!) discussion. Or maybe I'm the only one here lol and I can just talk to myself...

I think there's a natural curiosity in many people to question 'why' transgendered people feel or behave the way they do. Equally, there's another argument that perhaps they all just feel like anybody else would - differently per person. Nobody questions why some like apples and others don't, and there's no other obvious trait that links all apple lovers so why should there be a common trait in trans?

I've no doubt there will be some haters - simply because someone will always 'hate' something. I'd like to believe the majority no longer care other than to hold a mild curiosity about trans.

I suggest there's a curiosity in some people because men and women tend to wonder what it might be like to be in the other's shoes (different from a desire to BE the other gender). So when someone crosses the divide, or has the body of one, but the gender of another, it's interesting!

What I don't fully understand is the purpose of the thread!

Claiming to be an infertile woman is very common among men LARPing in womanface - frequently men who have fathered children already.

Trans is an inherently misogynistic ideology.

Transgender advocates are a subset of MRAs not Feminism. Be careful out there.

Why not watch this OP?

If you want to be open minded.

It's a TED talk about Transitioning, from the perspective of the very liberal wife of a man who decided to transition and wanted to support them.

2nd rule of misogyny: Women saying no to men is a hate crime.
Men rape torture and kill women at alarming rates and yet they are not called woman haters for it. In fact they write stories and make films that claim they rape torture and kill us because they love us so much they can't stand it.
Conversely, let a woman refuse a man, or especially all men, and she will invariably be accused of hate. Why? Is it because the idea that women are indifferent to them inconceivable?

100lbtolose: "I suppose it was stupid to think people would leave this thread alone but really I thought there could be one pro-trans thread! "

Did you really think you could walk in to the women's room piss on our leg and claim it was raining and no one would object? Srsly? More fool you.

And, lo, the OP did come down upon the Feminism board and begin a thread whereby allies and (the right sort) of trans people would know her and feel the comfort of her presence.
And there was a much questioning but the OP remained firm in her belief that her thread was a Good and Sufficient thing in itself, needing no more justification than that it allowed her Virtue to shine clearly.

*Lol @ it being like the backlash against gay people.

Lesbians are being called bigots for not wanting "lady-dick"
I read something online from someone who said that the only non bigoted sexual orientation is pansexuality.

I'm bi, but I am only interested in ACTUAL women and ACTUAL men. Guess I'm just a massive TERF.*

Precisely. I'd prefer the plumbing to match the fixtures, as it were.

Note that by fixtures I do not mean clothing, hair, etc. Men with long hair and eyeliner can be gorgeous, but they're not women. Women with buzz cuts? Still women. But breasts plus penis? No thanks.

Trans IS the backlash against gay and lesbian rights movments, and against feminism. More than that, it’s largely made up of heterosexual men with very nasty paraphilias and personality disorders - narcissism, autogynephilia, paedophilia, and often enough a grab-bag of all of them. Why the hell should anyone, especially any woman, be “pro trans”?

A lot of people seem to have missed the point that the TRAs and religious organizations are advocating transitioning away the gays and lesbians. The only people more homophobic than the religious right are the trans advocates.

And before the inevitable gasps begin - everyone has the right to decide who they do and don't want to have sex with based on whatever criteria they choose. "I'm not sexually attracted to this combination of physical features" is a not only an acceptable but in fact an entirely logical reason not to have sex with someone.

(Ideally you'd assume that this wouldn't need to be stated on a feminist forum and women's right to refuse sex at any time for any reason would be respected, but this isn't my first time at the trans activist rodeo.)

MRAs and incels - this is why TIMs (trans-identified males) are called trancels. It’s the same loathing of women, the same outraged entitlement. How dare any woman have boundaries? How dare she reject him? It’s not a human rights movement at all, it’s all about their fetishes and obsession with sex. What’s his name, Drew DeVaux, the porn actor who came up with the Cotton Ceiling idea, specifically said “I’m gonna get us laid.”

And yet these are the men we’re being told to be Nice to. Even on feminist boards, it’s all Don’t Be Mean! True Trans! (btw there is no such thing; nobody is, or can become, the opposite sex) Fawn, fawn over the men telling women how to woman! It’s nauseating.

OP you claim to be 40 yet you seem to be incapable of responding to questions in ordered fashion if at all, let alone articulate debate. Whoever you are behind the screen...I don't believe you're 40, neither the "friendly" premise of your post. You are goading.

!

There I've added an exclamation mark

The transwomen I do know are sick to death of loudmouthed activists shit-stirring and attention seekingand to erode womens' rights. Activists are pro-Trans only for transwomen who agree with them, they don't give a fuck about anyone else.

That's why they won't fight for Trans spaces. Theyre about subjugation. A misogynist in a dress is still a misogynist

It's not 'TERF' war, it's 'TURF' war in my eyes. I will happily fight right alongside the trans community to ensure they have protected places, spaces, rights and opportunities, the same way I would for ANY minority group. BUT NOT AT THE EXPENSE OF WOMEN'S. Women have fought so goddamn hard over the years to battle against near-constant repression. It is not anti-trans to want to protect the precious few measures in place safeguarding us and granting us equal opportunity.

See, this is the thing. If trans activists had approached radfems and said "hey, you seem to have a lot of experience creating protected spaces for women, can you teach us how you did that so we can do the same for ourselves?" most radfems would probably have been happy to share whatever knowledge and experience they could. But instead they said "give us your spaces or else", and that's neither a reasonable request nor something we're going to do.

And the space they want most is inside the bodies of reluctant women.

"Please, give me a hugbox because my views won't stand up to scrutiny."

"No."

"HATE SPEECH!"

DarthArts

Thank you for that TED Talk video. Moving.

I don't see hate in the Feminism boards. I see real-life concern.
One concern is that women and childrens' rights and safety are being compromised (as discussed in a lot of threads).
Secondly, there is a concern that the "transing" of children is immoral and has parallels to homosexual conversion and mis-diagnosis autism symptoms. Drs are taking children and giving dupious highly dangerous chemicals on the child's word and how they "feel" and what their soul tells them, at an extremely young and vulnerable age.
Finally, believe it or not, a lot of us have concerns for YOU OP, changing who you are will not change your underlying problems (ask any one who has had major plastic surgery, ie Michael Jackson, Pete Burns, etc).

Gender Dysphoria or fetish AGP, we can see you are hurting inside - and are using this new identity as a crutch. The more you persist in holding on to that crutch and telling other vulnerable people this is a miracle cure - the more people are going to be very hurt - mostly the trans people - because they are not really addressing their problems.
This thread will be the most kindest thing that the OP can read - it's not nice, or easy - it's helping the OP see that he is in the grip of a delusion that needs to be properly treated (and I really hope the OP does). We will not lie to you OP - and that is our gift to you - no lies, no colluding, no patronising.
However, on a positive trans activist, friendly way, you OP, wear all the feminine stuff you like, have a great time - and I will stand with you and shout as loud as I can for your rights to self-express yourself.
But you still a man - sorry you want to be a woman - but, no, you are still a man.

I’ve not read the full thread, and won’t come back, because it’s descended into the typical stuff. But I wanted to say that as a feminist, and cis-woman, I was really happy to see this thread! I believe that feminism has space for supporting trans-women and cis-women, and that we may not be the same, or have the same experiences, but that doesn’t mean we should exclude each other, or erode each other’s rights. I’d have loved this thread to be what you wanted OP.

"Ive not read this thread but I am going to criticise it."

So you didn't see the posts from trans posters then...

You just wished to show off how kind and supportive you are to the OP and not them.

Fair enough.

Babypythagorus
“that doesn’t mean we should exclude each other, or erode each other’s rights.”
I’m with you there 100%.

However, I’m not a “cis” anything. And despite being happy to see transwomen as my equals, my views apparently make me a TERF.

Honestly, are you that indoctrinated that you can’t see TRA’s want to erode our rights, not the other way round?

Changing the law in such a way that if I ask for a woman to conduct my cervical smear test I may get a person with a penis who thinks they're a woman instead IS eroding my rights.

"I've not read the thread, I won't read it nor respond to any questions, you're all mean and hateful but yay I'll get pom-poms out for the OP and conveniently ignore the transpeople disagreeing with OP".
Babypythagorus
Fixed that for you, lovely.
Now; please tell me. What is this "typical stuff" you refer to?
Was it the feminists here who are offering Curry kind words and empathy after being assaulted for being trans?
Was it curry and pigeon who disagree with OP but live happily as trans?
Was it the hundreds of posts detailing that yes, we support trans people, we will share our experience with them, we will help them fight for their rights. But please don't put us at risk and steam roll us for your rights either. Please don't hurt already oppressed women, please don't allow harmful men (the same you claim to run from) into our spaces. Please don't make it harder for us to access medical care. Please don't marginalize us for telling the truth.
Don't threaten to rape, Doxx, kill, maim or assault us for disagreeing with your ideology.

If that's the typical you refer to than I am very proud to be a member of mumsnet and I am very happy to frequent the feminism board.

thebewilderness
Let us not forget the thousands of women harmed by genital mutilation in the name of cultural belief. Let's not forget how angry society gets about that (not enough, imo, but it's something.)
Allowing a child to take experimental medication that will render them childlike (physically) forever and infertile is disgraceful.
Women in their 30s and 40s often have to fight for sterilisation even if they're done having children and are at risk medically if they can't get it done. Tell me how a 16 or 18 year old is magically able to make that decision (and have it fully funded via the nhs too, no less)?

Here's an interesting test. Imagine that this is a coffee shop or a bar instead of the internet and you find yourself talking to a person and this issue comes up, and you realize that their take on it is pretty much at the opposite end of the spectrum to yours. If you tell that person honestly what you really think, are you scared that they might haul off and hit you right there? Are you worried that they might try to get you fired, or shunned by your social group?

If you disagree with a gendercritical woman on this she might argue with you, and she may even raise her voice if the argument gets really heated, but is she going to hit you? Of course not. Try to get you fired? For what? Shunned by your social group? I guess she could try, but none that I know would.

If the person you're disagreeing with is a trans activist? All of the above is a possibility, and most of it has already happened.