Trans friendly thread!

[100lbtolose]

Hi MNers!

Just first of all want to say this isn't going to be a goady thread or a place to slag anyone off of be abusive. Everyone can have an opinion and everyone's allowed to think that they like.

2nd, if your anti-trans or don't believe trans people should be alllwed to self ID or that they aren't the gender they say they are etc pls be respectful and don't post here. There are loads of threads about all kinds of discussions about being trans that you can post on and I think it would be fair if you didn't do that here. I Obviously can't prevent anyone but It would be nice for this space to be respected as trans friendly and not taken over for other reasons. If you don't agree just leave and post somewhere else instead of using this thread please!

That now said - I'm all for trans rights and I think trans men are men and transwomen are women. I don't know if many MNers feel the same but if you do say hi! Or if anyone is trans know that you have an ally in me this thread can be for a chat or support or (friendly!) discussion. Or maybe I'm the only one here lol and I can just talk to myself...

Bizarre. Op starts a thread with no actual points, continues to assert she stands by her non points, accuses reasonable and knowledgeable people of just wanting to tell her she's wrong and refuses to engage with any discussion because there are too many people involved

Ah that's truly sweet. Watching baby elephants could be the antidote to identify politics run rampant

Poor OP. We are asking questions aggressively now.

Womenz don't ask questions. Its aggressive when you do that. True pro trans allies don't do that malarkey.

• rolls eyes at the victim routine.

It's just really really obvious, OP that you are out of your depth. Damn right it was a mistake to post this here. For you. Shown yourself right up.

My first ever.

I have absolutely nothing against trans.
If any man feels more comfortable expressing himself in a stereotypically female way, he should be able to do that safely, without risk of ridicule or harm.

But he can never become a woman.

It's the definition of 'men' that needs to change, not the definition of 'woman'.

I'm all for trans rights as long as they don't erode or infringe women's rights. I'm unclear why trans rights means that biological facts can be negated by someone deciding they are the opposite sex.

MrsFogi

Hear Hear

" some of you are acting like even having a different view is an attack on you"

OP - come on now, let's think this through.

I'll get comfy whilst I wait...

The part I still can't square in my head is hearing how TRA's keep talking about "being true to their authentic self" and "refusing to deny their inner truth and knowledge they they are a woman" and not letting anyone else do so.

Ok so what's wrong with being an "authentic" TransWoman? Genuinely?

Why actually deny the truth of your "inner self" by shedding one "inauthentic" identity for another?

Why not be proud of who you are and encourage other to be so?

Why not fight for the equality of the transsexual community rather than seek to appropriate the rights of others?

I can't think of any other reason apart from that the goal isn't equality - it's dominance.

There is no desire to be authentic, the requirement is to subvert and coerce by relegating women to be a "sub-category" of their own sex (woman, then cis/trans/whatever I say on any given day underneath) where their rights are automatically thus 2nd tier - because the whole definition of what a women is and the legal safety that affords is "defined" a level above

That feeling you get when you school those old terfs on Mumsnet about trans issues. #ishowedthem #offtoiceabigcake

Quote:
"I'm all for trans rights as long as they don't erode or infringe women's rights. I'm unclear why trans rights means that biological facts can be negated by someone deciding they are the opposite sex."

Yes, that's me, too.

Thank you!

the questions you want to know have great answers online

I can tell you from my own "years of reading and thinking" that they really really don't OP. They rarely get answered, even badly. But perhaps you're the person to change my mind?

"the questions you want to know have great answers online"
Please could you show me where? I have honestly tried but I haven't been able to find anything.

100lbtolose thank you so much for this thread It is threads like this which made me understand the issues which need to be debated and considered. You have unintentionally opened up a thread which clearly and calmly expresses the issues for women.

Along with others on this thread, I too used to be an unthinking, virtue signalling 'trans ally'. Thanks to this thread and others I am able to articulate my concerns to friends and family (who are shocked to find out what self-ID means).

I am currently in discussion with WPUK about arranging a talk about A Woman's Place is Under Threat in my local area. I am pro-women’s rights, pro-trans rights and not in favour of self-ID, I am one of many. Your lack of any intelligent response to the concerns raised speaks volumes.

I would never have been aware of the issues if it had not been for the articulate MN threads. Thank you to all the intelligent, thoughtful and articulate MN posters. 100lbtolose maybe try to join in?

DarthArts:

"The part I still can't square in my head is hearing how TRA's keep talking about "being true to their authentic self" and "refusing to deny their inner truth and knowledge they they are a woman" and not letting anyone else do so.

Ok so what's wrong with being an "authentic" TransWoman? Genuinely?

Why actually deny the truth of your "inner self" by shedding one "inauthentic" identity for another?

Why not be proud of who you are and encourage other to be so?

Why not fight for the equality of the transsexual community rather than seek to appropriate the rights of others?

I can't think of any other reason apart from that the goal isn't equality - it's dominance.

There is no desire to be authentic, the requirement is to subvert and coerce by relegating women to be a "sub-category" of their own sex (woman, then cis/trans/whatever I say on any given day underneath) where their rights are automatically thus 2nd tier - because the whole definition of what a women is and the legal safety that affords is "defined" a level above"

Yes, this, too.

Exactly @Ereshkigal

The more I've read the the lack of "good answers" becomes apparent.

Arguments become increasingly circular and less logical until (much as this thread) they end up with a refusal to engage or debate.

Unless your prepared to suck up the TRA agenda hook, line and sinker you are a Terf #EndOf #NoDebate.

The irony is not lost on me that the 2 TransWomen I know do not support the TRA agenda. They support equal rights. They identify as TransWomen. They are proud to be such. They don't claim my experiences as a Woman any more than I claim theirs as a Transexual.

Well this thread has kept me up an extra few hours to what I was planning so cheers. In future if you really do not want to talk to people as arguments are available on google so its poibtless you answering anyone apparently, and god forbid the discussion you start generate responses that do not align with your own personal view, might I suggest you d not start discussion threads?

@100lbtolose "It's my view which I've come to from years of reading and listening!"

How many years? This is such a trendy issue right now with such nonsense currently being spouted that it is difficult for me to believe that there was much written years ago to support your views. Were you following this issue 20 or 30 years ago? A decade ago?

And clearly, you are no longer interested in listening. You already listened, years ago, so now you've decided to be done with that. You've closed your mind. You are so open minded, that you feel the best way to be open minded is to close your mind.

“men won’t self-identify as trans to take women’s positions”

OP, If you do absolutely nothing else, please take this away with you.

There are two types of transwomen.

Men with gender dysphoria and autogynephiles (AGP). Men with a sexual fetish.

It is the latter who are pushing for self ID. They don't want gender dysphoria to be the cornerstone of being trans.

Because that is not the reason they transition. They fetishise womanhood. They are the ones who say they are lesbians, talk about their lady dick and insist they're actual, biological women. Because it's a sexual compulsion to be thought of as a woman. (Eighty percent of transwomen keep their genitalia, and AGP individuals remain attracted to women.)

Which is why you are encountering this disconnect between the transwomen on here and the ones online.

Please. If you do nothing else, just read up on this. Everything will suddenly make so much more sense to you.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/4thwavenow.com/2017/12/07/gender-dysphoria-is-not-one-thing/amp/

Just a quick one to say thank you for this enlightening thread. Very thought provoking indeed. I'm not sure it's quite what the OP intended, but it's clear to me that self-ID is nonsense

Turned into a great thread in many ways. Sorry to read of the tough stuff for Curry and Pidgeon.

Why shouldn't trans advocates put on a male dominance display in the Feminist Chat? They just melted down all over the internet because there was a second annual women's march that didn't prioritize males.
Can you mandate belief?
Can you codify into law the idea that some people can mind over matter themselves out of material reality and into the opposite sex and must be treated accordingly?
It is like transubstantiation. A belief that no one actually believes.
Will you allow people to drug and mutilate children based on this belief that no one believes?