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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Trans friendly thread!

999 replies

100lbtolose · 23/01/2018 14:43

Hi MNers!

Just first of all want to say this isn't going to be a goady thread or a place to slag anyone off of be abusive. Everyone can have an opinion and everyone's allowed to think that they like.

2nd, if your anti-trans or don't believe trans people should be alllwed to self ID or that they aren't the gender they say they are etc pls be respectful and don't post here. There are loads of threads about all kinds of discussions about being trans that you can post on and I think it would be fair if you didn't do that here. I Obviously can't prevent anyone but It would be nice for this space to be respected as trans friendly and not taken over for other reasons. If you don't agree just leave and post somewhere else instead of using this thread please!

That now said - I'm all for trans rights and I think trans men are men and transwomen are women. I don't know if many MNers feel the same but if you do say hi! Or if anyone is trans know that you have an ally in me Grin this thread can be for a chat or support or (friendly!) discussion. Or maybe I'm the only one here lol and I can just talk to myself...

OP posts:
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19
Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 23/01/2018 20:08

I wonder if the OP is going to rude enough to ignore both pigeon and curry

Im going with yes

(I spelt pigeon with a D...i blame Fawlty Towers)

WinchestersInATardis · 23/01/2018 20:08

Right. I've only read the first couple of pages of this thread, but would like to point out that I am a woman (and fit the definition for those of you who are anti-trans) and a feminist.
I've been involved in feminist groups and forums and websites most of my adult life and still am.
However I tend to now avoid the feminism boards on MN because I find the anti-trans posters on here to be really unwilling to engage with anything that doesn't fit their pov. The comments I've had thrown at me have been really nasty.
If you want to talk about an echo chamber, this is it. I imagine there are plenty of women, myself included, who don't engage in the MN feminist boards anymore because we'll only get shouted down and accused of being men if we express an opinion that's not vehemently anti-trans.
I think it's a damn shame really, because MN is one of the few genuinely female-led forums online and it would be lovely if we could have the feminism boards a welcome place for all feminists and not just the anti-trans ones.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 23/01/2018 20:09

Well thats no help beyond

I still cant tell if they are worn by you or not Hmm

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 23/01/2018 20:10

Oooh yeah yoda

Look at us with our totes awesome vocab skills

(Forget the spelling mistake)

Battleax · 23/01/2018 20:11

Anyone want some 🍕 and 🍷?

Keep your strength up glitched while we all ask you stuff?

Battleax · 23/01/2018 20:12

Again winchester can't you see that you're confusing "anti-trans" with "anti-self-ID"?

TeenTimesTwo · 23/01/2018 20:12

Winchester Go back a page and read the posts by Pigeon and Curry. They seem to me to be saying the same stuff as almost everyone on the thread (and so by your definition are 'anti-trans'?) but they are trans. Old-school, hormone taking, body altering trans. Not modern self-id trans.
Or am I reading it wrong?

GarlicGrace · 23/01/2018 20:14

I am a transwoman and you know what? There is nothing wrong with that. I am okay with that and I wish more people could be okay with that too.

Oh, so do I! I'm quite certain that feminists would be helping transwomen all over the place, if they just stopped short of their "are women" delusion. Applause for "Curry and Pidgeon*.

This concentrated attack on women has made me much firmer about the definition of 'transwomen'. I used to think we could make allowances for anyone with a GRC. Now I want the certificate restricted to males who've had full genital reconfiguration. I know this would be difficult & upsetting for some, but am shocked at the depth of misogyny our tolerance has unleashed. We must close that door, it's being ripped off its hinges.

patrickharviesorganicmuesli · 23/01/2018 20:14

Winchester, all that people have done on this thread is try to engage with the OP and she has ignored us all. No one has shouted her down. The ‘anti-trans’ or pro-women feminists are happy to engage but there is a resounding lack of intelligent arguments from the other side unfortunately.

OrderMeACurry · 23/01/2018 20:14

@WinchestersInATardis

MN is not anti-trans. Take it from someone who has been on the receiving end of actual transphobia and anti-trans attitudes both online and in RL. There are people with strong opinions on here but that is not transphobia.

I still have the scar on my forehead from when I had a glass smashed over my head in the pub and called a revolting tranny. Why don't people who yell "transhobia!" actually address people like that who did that to me?

AssassinatedBeauty · 23/01/2018 20:15

@WinchestersInATardis but what I don't understand is that if you start threads about feminist issues in the feminist section then what have trans issues got to do with it? Unless you mean that posters hijack threads about other topics to post "anti-trans" comments and derail?

ArbitraryName · 23/01/2018 20:15

The only actual response we’ve had to any question on this thread (and that you for responding) is complete metaphysical solipsism.

Thing is, there is an external and material reality out there.

BeyondWW · 23/01/2018 20:16

Slight hijack, but dear goddess look at this... Shock
"Members will be able to indicate if they self-identify as BAME or disabled so Labour can collect statistics that are more accurate"

aliceperry.wordpress.com/2018/01/19/labour-nec-report-16-january-2018/

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 23/01/2018 20:16

Its that a contradiction in terms beyond

Battleax · 23/01/2018 20:17

Because they're only brave enough to libel opinionated women online curry.

I'm so sorry that happened to you. Broken glass as a weapon is seriously scary.

GarlicGrace · 23/01/2018 20:17

Oh, and people shouldn't be allowed to change their sex on their passport, driving licence, etc unless they have a GRC resulting from genital 'reassignment'. Because this is basically massive-scale fraud.

Battleax · 23/01/2018 20:18

Members will be able to indicate if they self-identify as BAME or disabled so Labour can collect statistics that are more accurate"

What education have these people had?

It would be funny, in a cringey way, if it weren't so serious.

GarlicGrace · 23/01/2018 20:18

statistics that are more accurate based on self-id!

Baahahahahaha! Grin Grin Hmm

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 23/01/2018 20:20

Isnt...not its

GarlicGrace · 23/01/2018 20:21

Oww, Curry, that's nasty Sad

I think the answer to your question must be that it's easier & more fun to attack women & girls than actual, violent bigots or men.

Maryz · 23/01/2018 20:21

Winchester, have you figured out the difference between Anti-Trans and Pro-Women?

Do you think (like Glitched) that transwomen are women? If so, are men women?

Should there be women's only spaces/prisons/refuges/sports? And if so, which men do you believe should be allowed into those spaces? Those who "look like women"? Those who "live as women"? Those need definitions, obviously since women can look or live in a wide variety of ways.

Should it be all men who want access to those spaces/sports?

In which case do you believe there should be no special provision for women based on their sex? Because that belief surely isn't a feminist belief, is it?

BertrandRussell · 23/01/2018 20:21

I don't know what pro and anti trans means, Winchester. I honestly think I am not anti trans- but I am anti self ID

SophoclesTheFox · 23/01/2018 20:21

I'm sorry that happened to you, curry. That's appalling.

I'm also sorry that the OP will almost inevitably ignore your and pidgoen's points, as they always do.

What do you make of Curry & Pigeon, OP? They're the demographic you're keen to support, aren't they?

ArbitraryName · 23/01/2018 20:22

"Members will be able to indicate if they self-identify as BAME or disabled so Labour can collect statistics that are more accurate"

That’s probably for the best because people might actually listen when anti-racist campaigners point out the problems. Even the virtue signallers of the guardian will get behind that (and the possibilities for transablism too). Who cares when it’s just pain old women (of the adult human female kind) complaining; there will be men of colour and disabled men to be taken seriously.

Maryz · 23/01/2018 20:25

Getting rid of all sex-based segregation is surely the only logical end result of self-identification.

I'd have more respect for people who actually admitted that was their end goal.

Like the women-only-shortlists - lots of people think they are unfair. If you do, campaign to get rid of them, not to allow some men on them ffs.